Not complaining on how well or worse it did compared to an X car/model. Just complaining in general for not at the very least having a rear or front LSD (regardless if competition has it or doesnt). I guess you said it right, you basically get what you pay for.
Is there a way to test the AWD function? Mine may not be working properly.
- Thread starter aliasneo07
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- RDX Aspec Adv.
My Jeep had ELSD's front and rear. Amazing AWD system. Could not touch anything for less than $100K that would compare to it. That said, Jeep got rid of the front ELSD because of driveability issues (it would shimmy pulling into a parking space). I eagerly await my first snow in this vehicle to see how it does. On black ice and snow and slush and everything in between, my Jeep did amazing.
My 2010 F-150 4X4 has a limited slip rear differential but an open differential in front. By some peoples figuring, that makes it a 3WD, LOL! And most F150 4X4's are sold without limited slip differentials. I'm surprised Ford hasn't been sued for false advertising by someone for emblazing "4X4" on the back side panel. (screwy)
I wouldn't take a limited slip differential in the CX-5 if someone paid me to let them make the switch for at least three reasons;
1) Less efficient. A limited slip differential causes the wheels to bind against each other whenever cornering.
a2) Reliability. LSD's put friction material in the differential oil which makes it more likely to have failure. The friction packs require replacement ne
3) A LSD is not needed on a CX-5 if you know how to drive. Why mess with initial cost/complexity if it's not needed?
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- RDX Aspec Adv.
-There are many different types of LSD unit. I have never had one require replacement, even having driven vehicles that had them well past 100K miles.
-You don't need proper weight distribution either, especially in an SUV, for "razor like handling", but you sure do prefer it...
-Why mess with initial cost of anything unnecessary that makes a vehicle nicer to drive?
-It depends on the diff, and where it is. Front diffs certainly can. Rear diffs? I have never had one feel that way, nor have I had abnormal tire wear on rear tires from it, either, so the "feeling" was not there, nor the operating cost.
Mitsubishi Evo 9 has front and rear LSD (evo 8 non RS had only rear LSD). The Evo’s have OEM Clutch pack style LSD and as mentioned by Unobtanium there are different types of LSD’s out there as well. When I converted my Evo to non ACD (Active Center Differential), I installed a Wavetrac front LSD. No one in the Evo world has ever had any issues of LSD as you mentioned and people have over 200k miles on them now.
LSD does not cause wheels to bind each other whenever cornering unless its some kind of faulty unit. Its designed to slip during turns and lock when ever there is excessive slippage. Hence the name Limited Slip Differential. In addition, people that track/road race there car or autocross, prefer LSD as it helps in the corners. This is also the firs time I have heard someone say it is less efficient. It basically acts the same way as an open diff when there is a slight difference in rotational speed in a turn.
You are correct that eventually one day after thousands of miles, the friction packs will need to be replaced on Clutch Pack LSD’s. But I rather have an LSD and one day need to replace the friction pack then not have it. Thats just my preference.
Its always better to have LSD if you live in areas of snow or mud. And if not there is not harm in having LSD. Example: Back in 2010 winter we had a really bad snow here in Chicago. My Boss had Acura MDX with its SH-AWD system. Long story short, I went through the alley with my Mitsubishi Evo and All Season Super Sport Tires (not great in snow) and did not get stuck. It was not easy though and almost leveled off. My Boss then went through with his Acura MDX and got stuck. His SH-AWD system had only Rear LSD and Front Open diff. Back wheels where slipping (as LSD locked) and one of the front wheels where slipping as the other was stuck. Maybe driving technique was involved but if he had front LSD he would have gotten out easily without needing any sort of “Driver technique”. And also note my car was way lower than his SUV. I wont even go into the story of running the oem Yokahama Advan tires on the evo in the snow!
As for the 2WD comment I was just venting because I was hoping deep down inside that at least just have front or rear LSD. (sad2)
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This is true. Most limited slip differentials are worn out and acting like an open differential. Generally the owners don't bother spending the money to get them rebuilt because they realize they are getting by just fine and that tires are more important. A LSD only helps with getting going, it will not help you stop any faster or go around turns any faster. The clutch packs in LSD's can wear out surprisingly fast. The ones in my F150 4X4 only lasted about 30,000 miles. And I've never had my differential flushed so all that clutch pack material is still floating around in there. I need to take care of that.
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- RDX Aspec Adv.
Who knows? I've driven old police cars, and the Posi-trac still worked just fine. 100K+ miles, still leaving twin stripes.
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- RDX Aspec Adv.
Somehow I have never experienced this. I have owned:
Auburn, 170K miles, worked fine.
VLSD, 32K miles, worked fine
Torsen, 149K miles, worked fine
ELSD, 92K, worked fine
Posi-Trac, Odometer stopped working at just under 90k miles, my mechanic rebuilt the car from the ground up, took apart the diff and discovered the clutch packs were in GREAT shape, put it back togather, and I put another hellacious 20K miles on it with a crate motor, 4.10's, and a TKO500 trans. (1988 mustang GT).
Numerous crown vics with the Posi-Trac units in them, all worked fine well past 100 and even 200K miles.
^That is the list of LSD's I have experience with, and the highest mileage on the vehicle at the time I sold it. I NEVER had ANY issues with ANY LSD units.
I'm not saying YOUR F150's didn't go out, because I wasn't there to see it. What I am saying, is that I have never had an issue with multiple types of LSD's.
The Auburn is a "cone" style LSD
The Torsen uses gears and fluid viscosity/flow differential
The VLSD is a viscous unit operated by speed differential between the two rear wheels
The Posi-Trac uses clutch packs "activated" by speed differential between the two rear wheels
The ELSD used electronically controlled clutch packs
All of them except for the ELSD in the Grand Jeep Cherokee were seamless and flawless. The Jeep, I have heard it said is due to the AWD system and not necessarily the differential, that you have shudder when parking. I don't know. The whole vehicle was crap, so I won't blame the diff itself.
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As it's been pointed out by others, LSD's lose effectiveness gradually and most people never notice because they get along fine with an open differential. What burns them out quickly is using them in conditions in which they are actually needed. They do cost more upfront, they do contaminate the oil in the differential, they do add drag (due to fluid friction in the differential) and they do increase ownership costs.
But if you're the type of person who has to have a vehicle that can climb up the sides of truck loading ramps at 45 degree angle without spinning a tire then, by all means, they are a very good thing. Personally, I prefer the more efficient and less expensive electronic systems. If I'm off-road in my CX-5 and I have two diagonal wheels spinning, I'll just apply a bit of brake which transfers some of the torque from the spinning wheels to the grounded wheels.
The CX-5 has never failed to get me where I wanted to go. Sure, I've encountered slopes that were slippery and caused diagonal wheels to air, and that required a second or even third try to conquer, but that's going to happen with LSD's too. The fact is, CX-5 was not built to climb rock gardens and I don't know anyone who uses one for that. But if there is a road there, even a very bad one, the CX-5 can probably get you there. The driver is generally the weak link, not the car.
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- RDX Aspec Adv.
I agree that man, not machine, is typically the weak link, but I will also point out that a weak mind using good gear is better than a weak mind using bad gear. That said, will buying bad gear inspire the weak mind to improve? No, I doubt it.
Also, it seems that you assert that I would not notice the loss in function from the LSD units I owned. I strongly disagree, as most of these were in performance vehicles, and I did DRIVE them. I would have noticed if it failed to fish-tail, or if it was leaving only 1 stripe, or if on the 1-2 shift I was spinning without any tail-waggle, or other things of the sort. The LSD's were most certainly pulling their weight right up until I sold the vehicles, at which point I lost track.
16CX-5GSAWD
Member
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- 2016 Mazda CX-5 GS AWD
Turn on the wipers to low or high and turn front wheels sharply will engage AWD as it uses a wiper sensor for snow and steering angle sensor.
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- 2022 2.5GT
Err, actually, the more you turn the lock the less it will engage the AWD. You are correct in that it senses lock but only because having the lock fully turned will reduce the amount of stepless engagement to prevent tight corner binding where the front and rear diffs fight with each other. With regard to the wipers, they too are an input to the AWD but turning them on doesn't actually switch on the AWD, it only influences the degree and timing.
A jackrabbit start in the rain while on a hill in a turn with and without wipers should give one a noticeable difference in traction. It does in mine anyway.
Technically isn't AWD on all the time as the Mazda videos have shown?... a small 5% load. EDIT: Looks to be 2%
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...-Trial-By-Ice-And-Snow-%96-CX-5-CX-3-And-MX-5
Technically isn't AWD on all the time as the Mazda videos have shown?... a small 5% load. EDIT: Looks to be 2%
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...-Trial-By-Ice-And-Snow-%96-CX-5-CX-3-And-MX-5
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- 2022 2.5GT
Like I said, the wipers have an influence but don't "switch AWD on". Not sure I've ever tried a jack rabbit start on a hill in the rain with the steering locked over. Maybe one day?
The system is constantly varying the AWD depending on what the car is doing. I think the 2% is probably nothing more than oil drag. It is stepless and variable. Toyota used it on RAV4s since 2006.
The system is constantly varying the AWD depending on what the car is doing. I think the 2% is probably nothing more than oil drag. It is stepless and variable. Toyota used it on RAV4s since 2006.
I agree... definitely not an on/off switch but like you said influences and definitely decreases activation time.
I wonder on the wiper input if Mazda utilizes the data from the automatic wipers for rain intensity or simply when the wiper motor is active?
I wonder on the wiper input if Mazda utilizes the data from the automatic wipers for rain intensity or simply when the wiper motor is active?
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- 2022 2.5GT
I've often wondered too. I would imagine that it just assumes a low friction surface and that's good enough.
16CX-5GSAWD
Member
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- 2016 Mazda CX-5 GS AWD
Look at all the you tube video of CX-5 or CX-3 demo AWD you will notice the wheels are sharply turn. I notice slip out of parking lot a Whistler where the front tires spin, I turn on the wiper and felt push from the rear. Snow fell over night ICY in the IGA parking lot where front wheels would spin snowing hard, turn on the wipers moved out parking spot (doh). Tried it 5 more times last season to confirm.
Look at the algorithm and you will see steering angle, speed sensors, temp, wiper on for input (for snowing or wet).
Look at Subaru video why doesn't Mazda test the same Subaru start from stop up steep incline.(headshake
It is way the Mazda algorithm is to sense wheel slip when going around corners where the outer wheel has to take a longer path than the inner wheel, that is why every Mazda ad for CX-3 or Cx-5 has the wheels turn sharply to show their AWD system.(gah)
16CX-5GSAWD
Member
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- 2016 Mazda CX-5 GS AWD
A jackrabbit start in the rain while on a hill in a turn with and without wipers should give one a noticeable difference in traction. It does in mine anyway.
Technically isn't AWD on all the time as the Mazda videos have shown?... a small 5% load. EDIT: Looks to be 2%
How does CX-5 know it snowing? Rain sensing wiper or wipers are on along with outside temp. Wheel sensors different wheel speed at each wheel, engine speed and light throttle position, D, wipers on, steering angle, tap on brakes try again, notice wheel speeds sensor don't match, Snap on Modis Ultra with me recording.
Wiper on made a difference use a whole ski season to test and retest so it did make a difference for me.(wow)
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...-Trial-By-Ice-And-Snow-%96-CX-5-CX-3-And-MX-5
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- 2022 2.5GT
Those tests are the most worthless none representative waste of time on earth. All they've done there is find a point in the competitions vehicle where it has backed off to a point it has completely lost drive to the rear axle. You can assume and pontificate all you like but the drive is reduced to the rear axle the tighter you turn the lock.
Look at the second paragraph on the last page of the attached PDF. This is out of the CX-5 workshop manual, not YouTube where sales people are trying to bamboozle gullible people.
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