How to drive a protege, Stick.

[Rockin03mp5]

1st of all my Mi. neighbor, there are 2 types of engine braking when referring to semi trucks. One does not use a jake brake, the engine braking effect is caused by simple downshifting, the second effect is caused by the use of an optional Jacobs brake which shuts down, I believe 2 of the common 6 cylinders and causes a much more drastic slowdown in braking, but not all trucks have jake brakes. It is usually illegal in populated communities to use jake brakes, due to the excessive exhaust popping noise from the added compression effect of the engine brake.Regular engine braking does not create any more noise than upshifting and is therefore not illegal. I know, because I've been driving 18 wheel 10 speeds with and without Jake brakes for a long time. Even though we weren't really mentioning auto P5's, the auto's can engine brake just the same. May I ask how old you are?

i know about the jake brakes. you were saying it is illegal to coast... which seems funny to me. (is it a MI thing? cause i will ask msp next time i see them)

I know my auto can engine brake, but i do have the manumatic, which makes it easier to. regular autos would have tougher times. i think if you avoid hard braking, you will help your brakes out more than just always trying to engine brake. technically though, to avoid hard braking, you will have to engine brake, or at least get off of the gas, earlier.

and what does my age have to do with anything?

 

[br289165]

Just wondering. If you ask the MSP make sure it's one driving a Suburban cause they're the D.O.T. guys who would know. I was taught that rule in Arkansas and Tennessee also.

i know about the jake brakes. you were saying it is illegal to coast... which seems funny to me. (is it a MI thing? cause i will ask msp next time i see them)

I know my auto can engine brake, but i do have the manumatic, which makes it easier to. regular autos would have tougher times. i think if you avoid hard braking, you will help your brakes out more than just always trying to engine brake. technically though, to avoid hard braking, you will have to engine brake, or at least get off of the gas, earlier.

and what does my age have to do with anything?

 

[br289165]

I always love the technical guys and their theory, no offense, but ask a truck driver who can't hardly read, but has been driving trucks for 30 years I'll bet the tech jargon means next to nothing to him, but he can drive the truck better than any engineer will ever be able to and thats what really matters. Theory wont get you from point A to B if you don't know how to drive. And of course there's always the people who think they can drive and but really can't when it comes down to it.

Isn't there three ways, downshifting, shutting down cylinders and exhaust restriction? Also Telma (Electrical) and Retarter (hydraulic) helping brakes should not be forgotten. Engine braking a car is very nice to save both gas and brakes, just not overdo it like I did. I have to replace my front rotors because they are so rusted on the back side that my car didn't pass inspection, apparently there is such a thing as using your brakes too little.

In my experience you only feather the clutch when starting or downshifting without revmatching, when driving it's actually best to think of the clutch as a digital switch. I still remember when I was in the military and was taking truck driving lessons and the driving intructor shouted to me: "WTF are you doing!?! it's nothing to be thinking about, just let it go" The reason for this is pretty simple: less friction time to wear down the clutch. Just remember this, mess this up when downshifting and you may damage your transmission, so this is not for inexperienced stickshift drivers.

To get the best milage you have to think about whats burning up fuel unnecessary: Basicly breaking down to later accelerate, ideling and shifting.
To get the best milage on a highway with a engine @ working temperature gently accelerate to 6k RPM in the first gear and then go directly to 5th and leave it there as long as the engine runs smoothly, in my MSP that's around 2k RPM on a straight road. Just remember that as soon as the engine bogs down it dumps fuel into the engine to keep it going and this affects the gas milage, so downshift in time. Going 35 mph I usually use 4th even though 5th is possible. When meeting a red light I find it best to keep it in gear down to around 1500 RPM and then shifting into neutral whithout using the clutch at all, manual transmissions are designed for this and this method will save both gas and clutch wear.

But especially in the US where gas is so cheap, my advice is to just go ahead and get to know the car and try to remember what RPM ranges the car will run at in different gears before trying hard to get hypermilage. The Proteges aren't exactly hypermilage cars anyways, with my MSP I mostly get 30-34mpg on slow highways myself (where my 96 Hyundai Elantra wagon beater car I can get 40, and with my parent's diesel car 55mpg is achievable.)

 

[justanothermp5]

i found the best way to take off was to rev to 5k and drop the clutch



lol jk

 

[BoostedPR5]

i found the best way to take off was to rev to 5k and drop the clutch



lol jk

Smokey burnouts ftw

 

[Rockin03mp5]

Just wondering. If you ask the MSP make sure it's one driving a Suburban cause they're the D.O.T. guys who would know. I was taught that rule in Arkansas and Tennessee also.

yup.. i know. the motor carrier division

they used to say that on their vehicles too, but they took that off.

 

[isbre]

I always love the technical guys and their theory, no offense, but ask a truck driver who can't hardly read, but has been driving trucks for 30 years I'll bet the tech jargon means next to nothing to him, but he can drive the truck better than any engineer will ever be able to and thats what really matters. Theory wont get you from point A to B if you don't know how to drive. And of course there's always the people who think they can drive and but really can't when it comes down to it.

Well, it's possible to be both. I am, and so is 2 of my friends. (I don't drive heavy stuff much anymore, but I drive enough to keep my drivings skills alive.) Aronund here learning the theory about the different brake systems and how they work is mandatory to get a licence for trucks / busses though. The only reason that I mentioned exhaust restrictions was to make it easier for pople to understand why they are so loud.

The drivers that think they know everything about driving and that nobody can teach them anything more about the subject is probably the most dangerous drivers there is.

 

[SocialStealth]

When I'm coasting, the car slows down more when it is in gear than when it is in neutral.

Is this because less gas goes to the engine when it is in gear?
Or am I just wearing something down by doing this?

 

[ToNeZ90]

Also, does anyone double clutch their downshifts? I'm not very good at it, but I don't notice too big of a jerk when I don't do it. Thank you synchronizer, or whatever it is called.

i Heel Toe shift occasionally. pain in the a$$ to get down but its good for slowing down suddenly. smoother and wont leave ur transmission 50ft behind ya(rofl)

i coast to a stop. leaves the engine at under 1k rpm. helps me on gas. plus, after u hit 50 mph i sometimes put it in neutral and leave it like that till i hit 40, then put it in 5th and rev-match it then slowly go back up to 50mph. takes a bit for it to hit 40 though.

and it slows down faster in gear cuz the gears are getting friction and since u arent gassing it just slows down the car.

 

[SocialStealth]

i Heel Toe shift occasionally. pain in the a$$ to get down but its good for slowing down suddenly. smoother and wont leave ur transmission 50ft behind ya(rofl)

i coast to a stop. leaves the engine at under 1k rpm. helps me on gas. plus, after u hit 50 mph i sometimes put it in neutral and leave it like that till i hit 40, then put it in 5th and rev-match it then slowly go back up to 50mph. takes a bit for it to hit 40 though.

and it slows down faster in gear cuz the gears are getting friction and since u arent gassing it just slows down the car.

So is it more fuel efficient to leave the car in gear or to put it in neutral to coast to a stop?

 

[isbre]

So is it more fuel efficient to leave the car in gear or to put it in neutral to coast to a stop?

If you leave it in gear the movement of the wheels keeps the engine going and the ECU cuts all fuel. If your put your car in neutral the car uses gas like standing still @ idle.

 

[ToNeZ90]

^^^ not to start any arguements but wouldnt it be a little more economic for the engine to be in idle rpm than 2-3k? and better for the transmission?

Edit: or am i wrong about that?

 

[Kurtanius21]

If you leave it in gear the movement of the wheels keeps the engine going and the ECU cuts all fuel. If your put your car in neutral the car uses gas like standing still @ idle.

I don't get this. Everyone says that the ECU stops delivering fuel when coasting. If this were true, why does the motor still rumble and make sound?
In my mind, only combustion can make such a sound. IF the engine did not recieve fuel, shouldn't the only sound I hear is the wheel roll?

 

[ToNeZ90]

I don't get this. Everyone says that the ECU stops delivering fuel when coasting. If this were true, why does the motor still rumble and make sound?
In my mind, only combustion can make such a sound. IF the engine did not recieve fuel, shouldn't the only sound I hear is the wheel roll?

agreed. hence why i'm confused right now if the gear is keeping the engine at 2-3k then why is that better than having it at idle?

now i'm REALLY curious(RTM)

 

[magnumP5]

So much bad information in this thread I need to intervene and I don't even have my P5 anymore...

I will first off state that low-RPM driving != good gas mileage all the time. If you're putting around in high gear and need to accelerate you will do one of two things. You will either stay in gear and mash on the gas or downshift and apply a little more throttle. Both means burn a lot of fuel. In high gear you are bogging the engine and are way out of the engine's efficiency range and by downshifting you are popping the engine speed up and giving it more throtte, which also burns fuel. These cars are the most efficient at an engine speed between 2500-3000 RPM. This is why most people get the best gas mileage in 5th gear going ~50 mph. This engine speed range is also good because it allows you to make small changes in speed without having to downshift or upshift. This fact remains the same for all cars but all engines have different efficiencies so the most efficient engine speed is different for all cars.

Next, above 1500 RPM, if the throttle is not depressed the engine DOES cut fuel, but not all of it. The throttle plate closes, but air still enters the intake via the throttle body and the idle adjustment screw (IAS). If you are above 1500 RPM and left off the throttle the car will run very lean (>18:1) until either the engine speed drops below 1500 RPM or you re-apply throttle. With that being said, it is much more efficient, both in fuel economy and braking, by letting off the throttle to decelerate when coming to a stop. This is true of all manual cars using stock engine control units.

I find it so funny that all the people can come on here spouting "facts" when in fact they know very little about these cars. The best advice? Drive the car the way that you find best. You will know what is/is not smooth and you will very quickly find the style that works best for you - it just takes time. After owning the P5 for four years I had it down pretty well and could easily maintain 25+ mpg all around, even with the turbocharger.

/thread

 

[isbre]

I don't get this. Everyone says that the ECU stops delivering fuel when coasting. If this were true, why does the motor still rumble and make sound?
In my mind, only combustion can make such a sound. IF the engine did not recieve fuel, shouldn't the only sound I hear is the wheel roll?

Well OK magnumP5, I still don't know if my car cuts fuel or cuts the spark, I have read some long discussions about this and haven't found the answer yet. Anyway, it uses much less than keeping the engine ideling.

When you're coasting the engine is still moving like it was before. Think about what you hear when driving, do you hear the rumble for from the moving pistons, valves and exhaust or do you hear the fuel burning?

Even though magnumP5 was a bit more direct about it I gave the same advice in my first post in this thread, just drive like normal. I certainly am, and with highway records of 42mpg with gasoline and 66mpg with a diesel I must be doing something right.

 

[magnumP5]

^^^ isbre, for all intents and purposes you are correct to say "the ECU cuts fuel" as the air/fuel ratio is very lean during this condition - just enough to keep the engine firing so it is still running. It's just as Kurtanius21 mentioned, the engine does not actually shut off so technically some fuel delivery is required.

Again, the answer the intent of the original post. There is no "correct" way to drive stick. Sure, there is a set procedure you must follow (clutch out, throttle in, etc.) but the timing, amount of throttle applied, etc. is all very subjective. I learned to drive a manual transmission largely on my old P5. I worked at a used car dealership (where I found my P5) so I had to learn quickly. The first manual car I drove was a BMW Z3 Roadster and all I had was someone ride with me and tell me the basics I mentioned above. Ever since then it's been all me. I now only drive manual transmissions - '09 Tacoma 6-speed and a '89 RX-7. Anyway, the simple point is - drive in whatever matter best fits you. You will find the best compromise of fuel economy and spirited driving, etc.

 

[SocialStealth]

So after the car reaches under 1500 rpm it no longer reduces the fuel and basically goes into idle?

Because at 1500 rpm in 5th gear, my cars still coasting at around 30 mph.

To save gas, Lets say i'm coasting from 50 mph to a stop. Should I coast in 5th gear till 1500 rpms, then downshift into 4th and coast to 1500 then 3rd to 1500 then 2nd to 1500 ?

Or could I just stay in 5th till it goes down to 1000 rmps//20 mph, and maybe shift into 2nd?

 

[Kurtanius21]

'09 Tacoma 6-speed [/B]and a '89 RX-7.

Hah, wonder what it's like driving manual in one of those giant things. It must feel pretty powerful.

 

[magnumP5]

So after the car reaches under 1500 rpm it no longer reduces the fuel and basically goes into idle?

Because at 1500 rpm in 5th gear, my cars still coasting at around 30 mph.

To save gas, Lets say i'm coasting from 50 mph to a stop. Should I coast in 5th gear till 1500 rpms, then downshift into 4th and coast to 1500 then 3rd to 1500 then 2nd to 1500 ?

Or could I just stay in 5th till it goes down to 1000 rmps//20 mph, and maybe shift into 2nd?

This is possible but it would be hell on your transmission to not rev-match at all, which is what would be required. As soon as you touch the throttle the car goes back in closed loop control and tries to maintain the 14.7:1 air:fuel ratio. In my opinion, you're better off just leaving it in the gear you were last, winding it all the way down to almost stall and then push the clutch in. To me, that makes for the best compromise between a smooth and quick stop. The only time I downshift is when I'm driving in slippery conditions or I know I'll be accelerating soon.

Hah, wonder what it's like driving manual in one of those giant things. It must feel pretty powerful.

Man, I'll tell you - it's very different from the Protege. Long gears, long throws and the clutch pretty much has to be all the way out to be engaged. When I still had the P5 it always felt like I was driving a big rig after switching back to the truck. It's nice because it actually have a pretty tall, and therefore useful first gear.