How to safely "teach" ECU?

[freebird_78]

Just installed an ETS TMIC. Didn't disconnect the battery, therefore the ECU trims remained where they were before (SRI, MP). Slapped on the TMIC, went out for a ride, and scared the crap out of myself. Got it up to temp, opened it up just a little and noticed 2 PSI better than I've seen in the past, but then I glanced down at my AFRs. At moderate throttle, I was seeing high 14's to low 15s. In my eyes, it was signs of impending boom. (boom06) Immediately I gently rolled off the throttle and drove home gently.

I understand the ECU takes the magic ten key cycles at >5min each to learn, but if you stay out of that particular load/rpm range, then how is the ECU going to learn how to trim that part of the map(s)?

 

[Vord]

+1

 

[chacon101]

I think you just blew the whistle on your sig..

 

[freebird_78]

I think you just blew the whistle on your sig..

Oops, you're right. Removed location to offset. (shrug)

 

[Speedy3]

Just installed an ETS TMIC. Didn't disconnect the battery, therefore the ECU trims remained where they were before (SRI, MP). Slapped on the TMIC, went out for a ride, and scared the crap out of myself. Got it up to temp, opened it up just a little and noticed 2 PSI better than I've seen in the past, but then I glanced down at my AFRs. At moderate throttle, I was seeing high 14's to low 15s. In my eyes, it was signs of impending boom. (boom06) Immediately I gently rolled off the throttle and drove home gently.

I understand the ECU takes the magic ten key cycles at >5min each to learn, but if you stay out of that particular load/rpm range, then how is the ECU going to learn how to trim that part of the map(s)?

This is a good question and one I have asked myself many times. I assume, it models it's maps based on trends in the data it has collected so far.

One thing I just learned is that the ECU targets a Load (HP/Torque) value and that is how the ecu adjusts it's trims. The stock target load value is higher than stock can allow because Mazda accomodated adding of the MS CAI and CBE. After those mods, there's not much more to gain but efficiency. The ETS is really, imo, a bad mod without an ECU mod because it increases boost spikes, causes the ECU to close the throttle plate, forcing the car to go temporarily lean under full boost. The stock wastegate cannot keep up when using the ETS. Whatever you do, don't upgrade your BPV if your gonna keep the ETS. Boost spikes will hit 23 psi everytime you punch it.

And, if you are keeping the ETS, don't punch it anymore, go gradual WOT. It helps the ECU by reducing the tendency to boost spike.

 

[freebird_78]

This is a good question and one I have asked myself many times. I assume, it models it's maps based on trends in the data it has collected so far.

One thing I just learned is that the ECU targets a Load (HP/Torque) value and that is how the ecu adjusts it's trims. The stock target load value is higher than stock can allow because Mazda accomodated adding of the MS CAI and CBE. After those mods, there's not much more to gain but efficiency. The ETS is really, imo, a bad mod without an ECU mod because it increases boost spikes, causes the ECU to close the throttle plate, forcing the car to go temporarily lean under full boost. The stock wastegate cannot keep up when using the ETS. Whatever you do, don't upgrade your BPV if your gonna keep the ETS. Boost spikes will hit 23 psi everytime you punch it.

And, if you are keeping the ETS, don't punch it anymore, go gradual WOT. It helps the ECU by reducing the tendency to boost spike.

Thanks for the tips. However, I'm at 4000ft elev so I'm about 2 PSI off sea level, so my spikes are about 14.5 PSI, dropping to 12.5 or so. Before ETS, I spiked about 12.5 dropped to about 10.8 or so.

 

[ericrapp]

wow

This is a good question and one I have asked myself many times. I assume, it models it's maps based on trends in the data it has collected so far.

One thing I just learned is that the ECU targets a Load (HP/Torque) value and that is how the ecu adjusts it's trims. The stock target load value is higher than stock can allow because Mazda accomodated adding of the MS CAI and CBE. After those mods, there's not much more to gain but efficiency. The ETS is really, imo, a bad mod without an ECU mod because it increases boost spikes, causes the ECU to close the throttle plate, forcing the car to go temporarily lean under full boost. The stock wastegate cannot keep up when using the ETS. Whatever you do, don't upgrade your BPV if your gonna keep the ETS. Boost spikes will hit 23 psi everytime you punch it.

And, if you are keeping the ETS, don't punch it anymore, go gradual WOT. It helps the ECU by reducing the tendency to boost spike.

Good comments, Using the ets 3.5 I have experienced some of these conditions. I am glad to see you are monitoring afr. to keep the car safe. Also there are ways to control the boost manually I have read of. Could this correct the ecu problem? or should we just inject more fuel?

 

[ericrapp]

Free. my ets did settle down with no codes. But then i threw more parts on it. It might be a good opportunity for you to start tuning it. good luck!

 

[Speedy3]

Thanks for the tips. However, I'm at 4000ft elev so I'm about 2 PSI off sea level, so my spikes are about 14.5 PSI, dropping to 12.5 or so. Before ETS, I spiked about 12.5 dropped to about 10.8 or so.

This ECU has barometric pressure input, so it knows your elevation.

 

[ccs70]

Is this "common knowledge", that the ETS causes the engine to go temporarily lean under full boost? I've just ordered the ETS, the Forge BPV, cp-e DP, a 3" inlet and the reworked K04. I would like to get some kind of remap, but I live in Norway, and there seems to be very limited knowledge of the MS3/6 here. From what I have heared, there are only sold 4-5 MS3/6 here... None of the tuners I have spoken to here in Norway know anything about these cars.

By the way, what does WOT mean?

Also, there is a lot of talk about installing a catch can to avoid smoking. What does that entail? Where do I get a catch can and is it complicated to install? There is also talk about a Forge waste gate and that a better waste gate can help against smoking... but is such a waste gate even available?

Hope some of you knowledgeable guys can help me out by replying!!!

This is a good question and one I have asked myself many times. I assume, it models it's maps based on trends in the data it has collected so far.

One thing I just learned is that the ECU targets a Load (HP/Torque) value and that is how the ecu adjusts it's trims. The stock target load value is higher than stock can allow because Mazda accomodated adding of the MS CAI and CBE. After those mods, there's not much more to gain but efficiency. The ETS is really, imo, a bad mod without an ECU mod because it increases boost spikes, causes the ECU to close the throttle plate, forcing the car to go temporarily lean under full boost. The stock wastegate cannot keep up when using the ETS. Whatever you do, don't upgrade your BPV if your gonna keep the ETS. Boost spikes will hit 23 psi everytime you punch it.

And, if you are keeping the ETS, don't punch it anymore, go gradual WOT. It helps the ECU by reducing the tendency to boost spike.

 

[Vord]

WOT is wide open throttle.

As far as the remap thing, try the COBB AccessPort.

The catch can is used to catch the oil from the leaking turboseals. I think someone did a How-to about it or something. Maybe try other forums for a how-to.

I don't think there is any new wastegates available right now. I haven't heard of anything about a new being developed by any of the tuners around the forum.

 

[Speedy3]

Is this "common knowledge", that the ETS causes the engine to go temporarily lean under full boost?

I don't think this is common knowledge, it has just been observed by people that datalog. The MS3 ECU tries to manage air/fuel ratio by contolling fuel, throttle and wastegate duty cycle to a target load value (HP/Torque). With all the mods you listed, the ECU cannot contol the wastegate duty cycle fast enough to handle boost spikes. 1. the watsegate flapper is too small to bypass enough pressure around the turbo. 2. when the ECU "sees" a large boost spike, it starts to close the throttle to cut back boost pressure which creates a lean condition.

I've just ordered the ETS, the Forge BPV, cp-e DP, a 3" inlet and the reworked K04. I would like to get some kind of remap, but I live in Norway, and there seems to be very limited knowledge of the MS3/6 here. From what I have heared, there are only sold 4-5 MS3/6 here... None of the tuners I have spoken to here in Norway know anything about these cars.

You are going to see big boost spikes in this configuration. Your turbo will spool up way faster than before. also, you will hold higher pressure under WOT than stock, probably around 18 PSI. The Forge BPV will hold pressure better and the ETS will have less pressure drop. The stock BPV is designed to "leak" a little to help the car maintain 15.6 PSI and reduce the spikes. Remember, boost spikes create lean conditions and extra pressure in the cylinders, which is very bad for engines. This is especially bad if you are in stop-and-go traffic and you punch it when the intake charge air temperature is high. This will cause detonation under these conditions.

The only safe tuning system available right now is the Cobb in my opinion. The cob doesn't fool the system in any way and allows the ECU to target higher power levels while still using all its sensors and algorithms. This ECU is quite complicated. Piggy-backs or stand-backs take away part of the ECU's equation and make it enter unsafe conditions.

Also, there is a lot of talk about installing a catch can to avoid smoking. What does that entail? Where do I get a catch can and is it complicated to install? There is also talk about a Forge waste gate and that a better waste gate can help against smoking... but is such a waste gate even available?

Hope some of you knowledgeable guys can help me out by replying!!!

The catch can is being installed on the PCV hose. This doesn't eliminate smoking turbos. The smoking turbo issue is a seal problem with floating bearing type turbos. If your seals are good, maintain them by changing your oil at least every 3000 miles, let your car warm up before driving and cool down before shutting off. If your seals are out of tollerance, the turbo will leak oil past the seals into the exhaust and with the cp-e DP, you will see smoke during long idle conditions or immediately thereafter when you get on it.

The catch can captures the excessive oil/oil vapor coming from the valve cover and prevents oil from building up on your intake system, especially the throttle plate and intake valves. It is a know issue with DISI engines to have excessive crud buildup on the intake system since the fuel isn't coming into the engine from the intake manifold.

A wastegate will not reduce smoking, again, it's unrelated to the oil smoking problem.

Last thing, look at this inlet before you decide to buy an inlet!
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123706776

 

[john blutarski]

The catch can is being installed on the PCV hose. This doesn't eliminate smoking turbos. The smoking turbo issue is a seal problem with floating bearing type turbos. If your seals are good, maintain them by changing your oil at least every 3000 miles, let your car warm up before driving and cool down before shutting off. If your seals are out of tollerance, the turbo will leak oil past the seals into the exhaust and with the cp-e DP, you will see smoke during long idle conditions or immediately thereafter when you get on it. A wastegate will not reduce smoking, again, it's unrelated to the oil smoking problem.

According to this thread: http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123709072&page=3, its a PCV system problem and not a turbo seal problem. I wish we could get some hard evidence and get the final answer on the smoking issue.

 

[ericrapp]

the parts

Is this "common knowledge", that the ETS causes the engine to go temporarily lean under full boost? I've just ordered the ETS, the Forge BPV, cp-e DP, a 3" inlet and the reworked K04. I would like to get some kind of remap, but I live in Norway, and there seems to be very limited knowledge of the MS3/6 here. From what I have heared, there are only sold 4-5 MS3/6 here... None of the tuners I have spoken to here in Norway know anything about these cars.

By the way, what does WOT mean?

Also, there is a lot of talk about installing a catch can to avoid smoking. What does that entail? Where do I get a catch can and is it complicated to install? There is also talk about a Forge waste gate and that a better waste gate can help against smoking... but is such a waste gate even available?

Hope some of you knowledgeable guys can help me out by replying!!!

I am still learning about tuning a turbo charged car. But I can say, that I added the intercooler due to excessive heat buildup. The car had dealer installed mazdaspeed cold air intake from the start. Before I added the IC my exhaust TIP was too hot too touch after driving. and the stock intercooler would be quite warm on ' cooled side '.
so after ets install these issues go away. I installed a Turboback Exhaust. Car ran strong but boost tube were distorted 'hot side ' and boost was leaking.Replaced valve and tubes. Forge valve. Played with springs and shims and found that at the higher boost due to such an increase in flow caused some ecu intervening. If i ran the softer spring she would handle the throttle pretty well. I use the blue now. and I only modulate in 4, and 5 at low rpm tip in. Runs hard, afr numbers afr but still nowhere near its potential. I hope you can log the air fuel to be sure you are ok with these. I wish you luck. Maybe add one piece at a time and see what happens. But I agree with the folks here that you will need to get some control over fuel soon. or reduce the boost. with the increase in air flow/ cai,downpipe, ic you have the potential to make more horsepower with less boost anyways.

 

[ccs70]

I am still learning about tuning a turbo charged car. But I can say, that I added the intercooler due to excessive heat buildup. The car had dealer installed mazdaspeed cold air intake from the start. Before I added the IC my exhaust TIP was too hot too touch after driving. and the stock intercooler would be quite warm on ' cooled side '.
so after ets install these issues go away. I installed a Turboback Exhaust. Car ran strong but boost tube were distorted 'hot side ' and boost was leaking.Replaced valve and tubes. Forge valve. Played with springs and shims and found that at the higher boost due to such an increase in flow caused some ecu intervening. If i ran the softer spring she would handle the throttle pretty well. I use the blue now. and I only modulate in 4, and 5 at low rpm tip in. Runs hard, afr numbers afr but still nowhere near its potential. I hope you can log the air fuel to be sure you are ok with these. I wish you luck. Maybe add one piece at a time and see what happens. But I agree with the folks here that you will need to get some control over fuel soon. or reduce the boost. with the increase in air flow/ cai,downpipe, ic you have the potential to make more horsepower with less boost anyways.

Thank you all for your valuable input! From what I can gather, I should either keep the stock valve untill I somehow can get a proper mapping, or use a soft spring in the Forge valve. Either way, I should be careful when gassing the engine (easier said than done unfortunately, especially when its more power we are after). Also, I see that the ATP inlet (which of course is the one I have ordered...) does not have a very high standing because it simply does'nt fit very well. I'm going to look for alternatives. Hopefully Ken from PG will let me cancel that part of the order...

 

[Speedy3]

According to this thread: http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123709072&page=3, its a PCV system problem and not a turbo seal problem. I wish we could get some hard evidence and get the final answer on the smoking issue.

Everyone has their own theory, but mazda has been replacing turbos when smoke starts coming out the exhaust. Why didn't they replace the PCV system instead? My friend has had his turbo replaced 3 times in 27K miles. That would be a pretty expensive mis-diagnosis on mazda's part. Almost every part that is replaced under warranty gets sent to mazda for analysis and or inspection. I would assume that very few of those parts actually get inspected, but they would inspect a turbo if it was sent back. So, if they are still replacing turbos, then that must be the culprit. I have done extensive reading about this turbo and I guarantee you that this floating brass sleeve and axial thrust bearing design is susceptable to damage and/or manufacturing variances.

 

[tony10126]

sup guys. ive jus been reading the thread... i know im alil off topic but im getting the cobb sri 2morrow. is there anything i should be worried about with my ecu as far as issues u are talking about?? i already have a fbpv, and im running blue spring and 1 shim. i know u guys are talking about bigger mods that can cause a lean condition and detonation. do i have anything to worry about? ive been told to disconnect the batt and go easy on her for a couple of days to she can relearn. is this true? and in ur opinion do i have anything to worry about as far as running lean or detonation?

 

[bova80]

Everyone has their own theory, but mazda has been replacing turbos when smoke starts coming out the exhaust. Why didn't they replace the PCV system instead? My friend has had his turbo replaced 3 times in 27K miles. That would be a pretty expensive mis-diagnosis on mazda's part. Almost every part that is replaced under warranty gets sent to mazda for analysis and or inspection. I would assume that very few of those parts actually get inspected, but they would inspect a turbo if it was sent back. So, if they are still replacing turbos, then that must be the culprit. I have done extensive reading about this turbo and I guarantee you that this floating brass sleeve and axial thrust bearing design is susceptable to damage and/or manufacturing variances.

its probably a mis-diagnosis seeing as how he has gone through so many turbos and it keeps coming back. there is an oil vapor reservoir before the pcv which collects oil flowing by. sometimes that gets full and then it leaks into the intake manifold thus causing the smoking at idle (seeing as how thats when the pcv is open). the reason why it probably goes away when they first change the turbo is because they also change the oil which in turn drains that vapor reservoir allowing it to fill again. and then after a while and it fills it comes back.

all i know is when i took the pcv hose off the intake manifold there was oil all over it.