hey guys i was thinking of putting some subs on my car and i decided to go with a pair of 12in. L7 kickers.. or 12in. alpine type r.. i dont know wich ones and im going to keep the stock stereo by the way .. well the problem comes here alot of people are telling me to go with 10in. becouse the back of the car is going to drop and its gonna really affect the performance of my mazda i have a 2008 mazda3 2.3 automatic by the way lol
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sound system opinions
- Thread starter joelnazab
- Start date
They both sound alright, and put out quite a bit of noise. I doubt that you will get anywhere near what the type-r's like in terms of enclosure size. Type-rs do not respond well to sealed enclosures (same with the 7s) and the consensus is that they like 2.5 cubes PER 12", just like theyre big brother the type-X. I have an X (not in the car yet) in 2.4 cubes at 31ish hz, and it sounds deep and amazing.....and it weighs about 120lbs. Thats alot of weight. If you are concerned with weight you might need to steer away from these ground pounders and get you an SQ sub that will perform well in smaller boxes, and sealed...say some sound splinter or the PG sd12ds. Two of the PGs sealed would not only sound great but would look hot too. They weigh next to nothing.
fourthmeal
Banned
hey guys i was thinking of putting some subs on my car and i decided to go with a pair of 12in. L7 kickers.. or 12in. alpine type r.. i dont know wich ones and im going to keep the stock stereo by the way .. well the problem comes here alot of people are telling me to go with 10in. becouse the back of the car is going to drop and its gonna really affect the performance of my mazda i have a 2008 mazda3 2.3 automatic by the way lol
Hi Joel,
I put a few links on my signature for help with this car and how to build a system with it. Feel free to look at those links if you like.
I want to comment on subs and such:
I'm not a fan of the square L7's (or other square subs) because they simply don't model well. What I mean by that is that it is nearly impossible to make them fit properly via calculations (on a program like WinISD), and what happens is that a lot of people just throw these subs into ultra-small boxes compared with what they model out to fit. This small box makes them sound peaky, and as such they'll hit only a few notes well, while the rest of the frequency range will be weak or distorted. All in all, not a good thing!
I have a single 10" Eclipse LMT sub in my car, and most people think its more then enough, so I'm not a fan of multiple subs unless you feel you need them. There is no way in hell it will sound balance with more then one good sub (powered appropriately), but some people need more bass then the rest of the musical range, and for those people, multiple subs are sometimes the answer. I say this because I used to use two 10" JL subs all the time, but lately with subs getting better and better, it is getting more and more unnecessary to build a system with multiple subs, especially in a hatchback (a design that by its very nature amplifies 60-80hz bass frequencies tremendously.)
I will leave you with those links I mentioned, and I offer my help anytime if you like. Please post on your own thread rather then PM, that way others who follow this thread will see a consistent conversation and perhaps learn something along the way (or contribute!)
fourthmeal
Banned
The stock head unit is fine. Once again, I encourage you to take a look at the links on my signature, as they deal directly with this issue.
If you have a non-Bose head unit, then most likely you'll need to invest in some sort of processor that can restore a flat signal output to your aftermarket gear. The stock head unit has circuitry designed to kill off all low frequencies, and most high frequencies...it looks like a plateau if graphed. This is BAD for aftermarket audio, because all the good stuff (deep bass, great high end) are missing, and no matter what nice speakers you buy, you'll still end up missing those frequency ranges. The only way to get them back (without replacing the stock head unit) is to equalize the lost frequencies back to something near flat. Its important to tell you now that the rear speaker output is almost useless even with a processor, so it is best to focus your efforts on the front outputs only.
To do this, you've got options, depending on how committed you are to good sound quality. We've covered this in great detail (on the links I provided you), so I won't get that deep into it this time around...but know that you need to do something, otherwise anything you do or buy will be in vain. Budget $100-600 depending on just how you want to fix this problem, and use the links to decide what you want route you want to take...you've got options.
All this is not as important if you have a Bose head unit, which actually plays very flat in output. So if you're lucky to have one, you don't need the processor I mentioned above.
Now, the next thing to do is make a budget for sound deadening. DON'T even do a damn thing to this car if you aren't going to put sound deadening in it. Its that important. I recommend Raammat and Ensolite, both sold by Rick at www.raamaudio.com, a great place to do business IMO. Plan on a roll of mat, and 4 yards of Ensolite (as well as 2 cans of adhesive to properly attach the Ensolite.)
After deadening, you should notice that even the stock speakers sound WAY better, so you have choices to make. If you want just bass, then simply add a sub amp, a quality subwoofer, and a good sealed box, and wire in the right processor to the front speaker outs (while not disconnecting the factory wiring, just tapping into it.)
However, its my opinion that anything worth doing is worth doing right and well, so I recommend installing a quality set of component speakers in the front end, and a subwoofer. This is covered in detail in those links I mentioned, and I won't go into it here.
Lastly, we just were talking about how the L7 isn't really a good idea for a car because the box that it needs is HUGE, despite what Kicker suggests. Real world testing of things like this prove that they're not correct if you want flat, powerful sound.
Off the top of my head, I'll recommend some brands for you:
Alumapro (for subs)
Boston Acoustics (for subs and components)
Re Audio
JBL
JL Audio
Eclipse
Diamond Audio
Polk Audio
Pioneer Premier (for amps and front speaker components...only select models)
There are many more, but as a general rule, look for something that is known in the SQ world as opposed to SPL, flash and glitz
A lot of people get somewhat fearful of what a good system will end up costing them, and truthfully you can't do much with a few hundred bucks. Typically your wiring, sound deadening, and basic materials will cost this much! My suggestion is to reserve as little as $800, as much as $2000 (depending on your goals and your system expectations, especially if you are not installing it yourself.)
One great thing about good audio, truly good equipment, is that you can typically use it again and again, and everything will work fine for a long, long time. My best amps are somewhat new to me, but they are of a mid-90's vintage. My faithful JL subs are from '98. I've been able to use the same 4 gauge power wire in 4 cars over time! Stuff lasts if you take care of it, and if you install with care and attention to detail. Care while de-installing also helps, LOL.
Audio is a subject near and dear to me, so feel free to ask if you have questions.
If you have a non-Bose head unit, then most likely you'll need to invest in some sort of processor that can restore a flat signal output to your aftermarket gear. The stock head unit has circuitry designed to kill off all low frequencies, and most high frequencies...it looks like a plateau if graphed. This is BAD for aftermarket audio, because all the good stuff (deep bass, great high end) are missing, and no matter what nice speakers you buy, you'll still end up missing those frequency ranges. The only way to get them back (without replacing the stock head unit) is to equalize the lost frequencies back to something near flat. Its important to tell you now that the rear speaker output is almost useless even with a processor, so it is best to focus your efforts on the front outputs only.
To do this, you've got options, depending on how committed you are to good sound quality. We've covered this in great detail (on the links I provided you), so I won't get that deep into it this time around...but know that you need to do something, otherwise anything you do or buy will be in vain. Budget $100-600 depending on just how you want to fix this problem, and use the links to decide what you want route you want to take...you've got options.
All this is not as important if you have a Bose head unit, which actually plays very flat in output. So if you're lucky to have one, you don't need the processor I mentioned above.
Now, the next thing to do is make a budget for sound deadening. DON'T even do a damn thing to this car if you aren't going to put sound deadening in it. Its that important. I recommend Raammat and Ensolite, both sold by Rick at www.raamaudio.com, a great place to do business IMO. Plan on a roll of mat, and 4 yards of Ensolite (as well as 2 cans of adhesive to properly attach the Ensolite.)
After deadening, you should notice that even the stock speakers sound WAY better, so you have choices to make. If you want just bass, then simply add a sub amp, a quality subwoofer, and a good sealed box, and wire in the right processor to the front speaker outs (while not disconnecting the factory wiring, just tapping into it.)
However, its my opinion that anything worth doing is worth doing right and well, so I recommend installing a quality set of component speakers in the front end, and a subwoofer. This is covered in detail in those links I mentioned, and I won't go into it here.
Lastly, we just were talking about how the L7 isn't really a good idea for a car because the box that it needs is HUGE, despite what Kicker suggests. Real world testing of things like this prove that they're not correct if you want flat, powerful sound.
Off the top of my head, I'll recommend some brands for you:
Alumapro (for subs)
Boston Acoustics (for subs and components)
Re Audio
JBL
JL Audio
Eclipse
Diamond Audio
Polk Audio
Pioneer Premier (for amps and front speaker components...only select models)
There are many more, but as a general rule, look for something that is known in the SQ world as opposed to SPL, flash and glitz
A lot of people get somewhat fearful of what a good system will end up costing them, and truthfully you can't do much with a few hundred bucks. Typically your wiring, sound deadening, and basic materials will cost this much! My suggestion is to reserve as little as $800, as much as $2000 (depending on your goals and your system expectations, especially if you are not installing it yourself.)
One great thing about good audio, truly good equipment, is that you can typically use it again and again, and everything will work fine for a long, long time. My best amps are somewhat new to me, but they are of a mid-90's vintage. My faithful JL subs are from '98. I've been able to use the same 4 gauge power wire in 4 cars over time! Stuff lasts if you take care of it, and if you install with care and attention to detail. Care while de-installing also helps, LOL.
Audio is a subject near and dear to me, so feel free to ask if you have questions.
SuperStretch18
Member
- :
- '07 CX-7 Sport, Black on Black; '04 Mazda3s
...Its important to tell you now that the rear speaker output is almost useless even with a processor, so it is best to focus your efforts on the front outputs only...
*threadjack alert!*
I apologize if you have answered this in other posts, but can you go into more detail regarding the rear speaker output? I have a pile of equipment sitting in my dining room and your statement may have some implications on how I wire everything up... (spin)
True story. Like we have both said both of your choices require much more space than what the producers recommend. They fudge the numbers to attract a larger consumer group. Im not sure who has you hooked on the hype-arrrs and the L7s, but while good subs, they are not for the purpose you are wanting to use them. Again my recommendation goes with Phoenix Gold RSd12D. Can be found here...Lastly, we just were talking about how the L7 isn't really a good idea for a car because the box that it needs is HUGE, despite what Kicker suggests. Real world testing of things like this prove that they're not correct if you want flat, powerful sound.
Off the top of my head, I'll recommend some brands for you:
Alumapro (for subs)
Boston Acoustics (for subs and components)
Re Audio
JBL
JL Audio
Eclipse
Diamond Audio
Polk Audio
Pioneer Premier (for amps and front speaker components...only select models)
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=17536
and can be found even cheaper on other sites. Do not let the price fool you, this is one of the best kept secrets in car audio, Ive installed 3 systems built around this sub and everyone sounds AMAZING. Ive owned type-r 10"s and 12"s and this sub is an AMAZING SQ sub that puts the Rs to shame. My buddy has an L7 in his ride and while its louder, noise is not music. Also while rated @ 500W MANY have installed these running around 1000W, and even as high as 1500w by some accounts. For more info do a forum search at,
www.caraudio.com/forum
Great sub, awesome sound, even better price, and feather weight. Hands down.
fourthmeal
Banned
I'll pitch in by saying that I've not had the same luck with proper box sizing on the RSd 12", the T/S params required some 3cubic/ft of room or something wild like that to get .707 Qtc. That said, if you had the room it is a great sub! I'm a bigger fan (for new or budget buyers) of the JBL GTO, Alumapro, Boston, Diamond, and Eclipse subs amongst others.
Regarding the rear speaker outputs...hate to sound like a broken record but the information you seek is in the links in my signature. It is a complex topic that I've covered (along with many other contributors!), too complex and lengthy for a discussion of it here but feel free to hop on the link and see what you need to know.
Regarding the rear speaker outputs...hate to sound like a broken record but the information you seek is in the links in my signature. It is a complex topic that I've covered (along with many other contributors!), too complex and lengthy for a discussion of it here but feel free to hop on the link and see what you need to know.
kimcheeboy_16
Member
i'll pitch in by saying. that i own a 12inch type R, and the sound is clear, and it does put out a bump. my recommendations for a sub though, is the RE Subs, those subs are clean and also can put out some noise. look them up, just my advice...
i'll pitch in by saying. that i own a 12inch type R, and the sound is clear, and it does put out a bump. my recommendations for a sub though, is the RE Subs, those subs are clean and also can put out some noise. look them up, just my advice...
RE's are fantastic! However dont most of the models weigh in fairly heavy? Also ive found good results with the rSD12s with 1.4 cubes, which is much less room than the Rs or 7s. Seemed to like to be tune low, i cant remember just now but i think the last i built was 24-28hz...ish.
fourthmeal
Banned
Once upon a time, when I was constantly called on to model subs for people, I used WinISD and discovered that the T/S params of the RSd subs (I am talking about the 2005-06 line..maybe different now??) called for a large box to get .707.
Try it out on WinISD and maybe throw the screenshot on the thread...I'd do the same but no internet at home (only at work) means I can't play with WinISD and show you.
FYI my Eclipse SW8000 LMT sub is at least 30lbs...feels like more then that but that's probably because its so small relative to what it weighs. While its not great to have extra weight in the car, keep in mind that a well-designed fiberglass enclosure (or use of good lightweight woods) can keep things under control in the weight department. I mean, hell, you should be using more then 30 lbs of raammat if everything is going well...so what's a few extra pounds for the sub you want?
Try it out on WinISD and maybe throw the screenshot on the thread...I'd do the same but no internet at home (only at work) means I can't play with WinISD and show you.
FYI my Eclipse SW8000 LMT sub is at least 30lbs...feels like more then that but that's probably because its so small relative to what it weighs. While its not great to have extra weight in the car, keep in mind that a well-designed fiberglass enclosure (or use of good lightweight woods) can keep things under control in the weight department. I mean, hell, you should be using more then 30 lbs of raammat if everything is going well...so what's a few extra pounds for the sub you want?
Guess thats true, for me i look at it like this....how often am i WOT? Well quite a bit, but not nearly as much as I find myself listening to music. If you are going to a track you can take the system out. Of course you cant take out the Dynamat or whatever, but hell at least it cuts down on road noise. I get a real kick out of punching my car all the way up to 140mph, but s*** im going back to the states so when i can i do that?! I can listen to music all the time. I guess more than anything im trying to play up the importance of GOOD sounding subs, too many guys have ground shakers that sounds like ass. I know, i did it too. My one type-x sounds better than any sub ive heard in a while and still shakes my hair. Dont get caught up in the DB race. Get something that sounds good and you will be much happier.
Once upon a time, when I was constantly called on to model subs for people, I used WinISD and discovered that the T/S params of the RSd subs (I am talking about the 2005-06 line..maybe different now??) called for a large box to get .707.
Try it out on WinISD and maybe throw the screenshot on the thread...I'd do the same but no internet at home (only at work) means I can't play with WinISD and show you.
FYI my Eclipse SW8000 LMT sub is at least 30lbs...feels like more then that but that's probably because its so small relative to what it weighs. While its not great to have extra weight in the car, keep in mind that a well-designed fiberglass enclosure (or use of good lightweight woods) can keep things under control in the weight department. I mean, hell, you should be using more then 30 lbs of raammat if everything is going well...so what's a few extra pounds for the sub you want?
I'm curious, How come you are so anti-aftermarket head unit?
Sure it sounds ok, but what about adding Video, 5.1, Bluetooth, ipod touch screens, etc?
I'm asking because I truly value your opinion and knowledge on the matter.
fourthmeal
Banned
Thank you for the compliment. I am not anti-aftermarket on most cars, just cars that have their head unit so deeply integrated into the car. Our car has such a head unit (on the 3's), so its more of a forced issue rather then a choice. I spent about $500 on a processor that a $350 head unit could have easily beat, so if I could have installed a head unit and not lost any of the car's features, I would have. But this car isn't one of those made to replace the stocker very easily. The aesthetics of the dashboard are compromised with any current version of dash kit, and you lose the trip computer and clock function (not critical, but worth mentioning.) You also then need to spend money on a steering wheel repeater, so that's an issue.
I think that if you need a replacement head unit for one reason or another, then certainly you should go ahead and replace it. But the stock head unit has good sonic performance (at least the potential for it.) You've got a choice to make, though. I love Alpine and Eclipse head units, and I've got a few stuffed away in my closet. But this car isn't going to get one, until someone makes a good looking dash kit with an integrator for the display built into the dash.
I think that if you need a replacement head unit for one reason or another, then certainly you should go ahead and replace it. But the stock head unit has good sonic performance (at least the potential for it.) You've got a choice to make, though. I love Alpine and Eclipse head units, and I've got a few stuffed away in my closet. But this car isn't going to get one, until someone makes a good looking dash kit with an integrator for the display built into the dash.
I'm curious, How come you are so anti-aftermarket head unit?
Sure it sounds ok, but what about adding Video, 5.1, Bluetooth, ipod touch screens, etc?
I'm asking because I truly value your opinion and knowledge on the matter.
Thank you for the compliment. I am not anti-aftermarket on most cars, just cars that have their head unit so deeply integrated into the car. Our car has such a head unit (on the 3's), so its more of a forced issue rather then a choice. I spent about $500 on a processor that a $350 head unit could have easily beat, so if I could have installed a head unit and not lost any of the car's features, I would have. But this car isn't one of those made to replace the stocker very easily. The aesthetics of the dashboard are compromised with any current version of dash kit, and you lose the trip computer and clock function (not critical, but worth mentioning.) You also then need to spend money on a steering wheel repeater, so that's an issue.
I think that if you need a replacement head unit for one reason or another, then certainly you should go ahead and replace it. But the stock head unit has good sonic performance (at least the potential for it.) You've got a choice to make, though. I love Alpine and Eclipse head units, and I've got a few stuffed away in my closet. But this car isn't going to get one, until someone makes a good looking dash kit with an integrator for the display built into the dash.
Thanks for the explaination...
I have the Alpine IVA-D105 with the Digital Theater Amp plus another Alpine amp for the sub. both tucked under the front seats..
I have the steering wheel control adapter...I can flip the screen up and down by holding down the mute button....I do miss the trip comp though, but I'm guessing I might be able to get that back one day.
I think I may have been more willing to give the stock unit a go if the 6 Disk played MP3, or a decent Ipod solution existed...
fourthmeal
Banned
Its actually much, much tougher then that. You'd need the factory head unit or a bypass (which is made in Japan for just such a reason) to get the info.
price
aright i went to get an estimate the guy said that the 12in. alpine would be the same as the 12in l7 kickers (what do u say)... n e ways for two of either a 3000w amp an epicenter dont know what it is.. the lil box thing to keep the stock stereo the wireing.. the trunk kit so it wont raddle and the tube thing that helps the battery for 1000 oh and the custop encloser for the subs??????????
aright i went to get an estimate the guy said that the 12in. alpine would be the same as the 12in l7 kickers (what do u say)... n e ways for two of either a 3000w amp an epicenter dont know what it is.. the lil box thing to keep the stock stereo the wireing.. the trunk kit so it wont raddle and the tube thing that helps the battery for 1000 oh and the custop encloser for the subs??????????
first the tube thing is a capacitor. Most feel these to be largely useless and more of a scam than anything else. There is more to it than this but vaugely the reasoning is that a cap completly discharges in roughly .2 seconds after that your electrical system has to recharge it an keep the system playing (it should be mentioned that they charge very quickly too). In the instances where they do help its more of a band-aid fix as bass note such as the ones from a bass guitar, are not short bassi bursts and there for deplete the charge early leaving you with uneven output. If you need a cap, you need the "big 3",a bigger Alt, a battery upgrade or all three. Also I assume you are talking about the alpine type-r. Its a good sub but like it has been said it doesnt like sealed enclosures and seem to thrive in large boxes. Also for the amp if you could get the exact model number that would help. There is much more to an amp than its power rating. Features and design can have huge impact on your overall sound. Ask about things like crossover slope and power draw.
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