Winter is here and my CX-5 turbo is now a 2.0L!

[CatsPaw]

My CX-5 was a 2017, prior to the introduction of the cylinder deactivation feature.

I arrived at my conclusions after considering all the evidence and my first hand experience. The vehicle was throwing no codes, and there were no stored codes when I checked with a reader. To me it simply feels like ignition timing retardation only on a much more severe scale. I should have recorded a video of it but I don't believe in handling a phone while driving. I could floor the car in first gear and it would take 20-25 seconds to reach the red line which is about 5 times longer than normal.

In the older thread a couple of people called me out for not taking the vehicle to the dealership and making assumptions about what the vehicle was doing. I suppose that was a fair criticism when I look at it from their point of view. I'm kind of an outlier in that most people who are complaining own the turbo, but I experienced it in the NA version. I was (and still am) just very confident that the dealership wouldn't find anything. They would check for stored codes, find none, and tell me the vehicle was fine. Maybe I could have arranged to have them keep the car and drive it when it was very cold out, but again I know where the discussion would go. They would tell me they would send Mazda their findings but couldn't do anything about it that day because there were no codes to diagnose the issue, and then I'd never hear from them again unless I nagged at which point somebody would blow smoke up my butt and say Mazda couldn't determine a problem and the the vehicle was "normal."

All of that's an assumption on my part, yes, but it's very likely how it would have gone down. So I spared myself the hassle and didn't try.

I don't really have a stake in it anymore, but I like to keep up with this discussion because it's interesting and I want to see what becomes of it.

 

[sm1ke]

My CX-5 was a 2017, prior to the introduction of the cylinder deactivation feature.

I arrived at my conclusions after considering all the evidence and my first hand experience. The vehicle was throwing no codes, and there were no stored codes when I checked with a reader. To me it simply feels like ignition timing retardation only on a much more severe scale. I should have recorded a video of it but I don't believe in handling a phone while driving. I could floor the car in first gear and it would take 20-25 seconds to reach the red line which is about 5 times longer than normal.

In the older thread a couple of people called me out for not taking the vehicle to the dealership and making assumptions about what the vehicle was doing. I suppose that was a fair criticism when I look at it from their point of view. I'm kind of an outlier in that most people who are complaining own the turbo, but I experienced it in the NA version. I was (and still am) just very confident that the dealership wouldn't find anything. They would check for stored codes, find none, and tell me the vehicle was fine. Maybe I could have arranged to have them keep the car and drive it when it was very cold out, but again I know where the discussion would go. They would tell me they would send Mazda their findings but couldn't do anything about it that day because there were no codes to diagnose the issue, and then I'd never hear from them again unless I nagged at which point somebody would blow smoke up my butt and say Mazda couldn't determine a problem and the the vehicle was "normal."

All of that's an assumption on my part, yes, but it's very likely how it would have gone down. So I spared myself the hassle and didn't try.

I don't really have a stake in it anymore, but I like to keep up with this discussion because it's interesting and I want to see what becomes of it.

Ah, in that case it couldn't have been a rocker that had fallen off.

I'm sure there were some who thought you were exaggerating, and I might have been one of them. But I think everyone was just irked at the fact that you didn't even try to get it fixed. What's happening with the turbo CX-5 appears to be happening to all turbo CX-5s, while you (and I think maybe Zeroman, can't remember if he had a 2017) happened to be the only ones to experience any power loss issue in the N/A. That should be a clear cut sign to visit the dealership, especially if you're within your warranty period. You didn't even give them a chance because you were too busy painting all dealerships with the same brush. There are some good dealerships out there, and even if this one couldn't help you, there are other dealerships, as well as the option to escalate to Mazda of North America. But you couldn't even be bothered to take the first step. That, IMO, is why people railed on you.

 

[Unobtanium]

My CX-5 was a 2017, prior to the introduction of the cylinder deactivation feature.

I arrived at my conclusions after considering all the evidence and my first hand experience. The vehicle was throwing no codes, and there were no stored codes when I checked with a reader. To me it simply feels like ignition timing retardation only on a much more severe scale. I should have recorded a video of it but I don't believe in handling a phone while driving. I could floor the car in first gear and it would take 20-25 seconds to reach the red line which is about 5 times longer than normal.

In the older thread a couple of people called me out for not taking the vehicle to the dealership and making assumptions about what the vehicle was doing. I suppose that was a fair criticism when I look at it from their point of view. I'm kind of an outlier in that most people who are complaining own the turbo, but I experienced it in the NA version. I was (and still am) just very confident that the dealership wouldn't find anything. They would check for stored codes, find none, and tell me the vehicle was fine. Maybe I could have arranged to have them keep the car and drive it when it was very cold out, but again I know where the discussion would go. They would tell me they would send Mazda their findings but couldn't do anything about it that day because there were no codes to diagnose the issue, and then I'd never hear from them again unless I nagged at which point somebody would blow smoke up my butt and say Mazda couldn't determine a problem and the the vehicle was "normal."

All of that's an assumption on my part, yes, but it's very likely how it would have gone down. So I spared myself the hassle and didn't try.

I don't really have a stake in it anymore, but I like to keep up with this discussion because it's interesting and I want to see what becomes of it.

That's crazy. I had a 2015, and it ran even better in the cold. If I were you, I would try to get the dealer to data-log it when it does this. That sounds like mine when the fuel pump went out.

 

[CatsPaw]

Ah, in that case it couldn't have been a rocker that had fallen off.

I'm sure there were some who thought you were exaggerating, and I might have been one of them. But I think everyone was just irked at the fact that you didn't even try to get it fixed. What's happening with the turbo CX-5 appears to be happening to all turbo CX-5s, while you (and I think maybe Zeroman, can't remember if he had a 2017) happened to be the only ones to experience any power loss issue in the N/A. That should be a clear cut sign to visit the dealership, especially if you're within your warranty period. You didn't even give them a chance because you were too busy painting all dealerships with the same brush. There are some good dealerships out there, and even if this one couldn't help you, there are other dealerships, as well as the option to escalate to Mazda of North America. But you couldn't even be bothered to take the first step. That, IMO, is why people railed on you.

Yeah, I acknowledge that I look narrow-minded about it when viewed from the other side of the fence. There is more to this whole thing that I didn't go into because it's off-topic mostly. My experience with the dealership was, to put it bluntly, horrible and I just didn't want to deal with them. The next closest dealership is at least 3 hours away so it's these guys or nothing. The car was delivered with damage and they didn't want to fess up to it. I had the whole thing with the seat causing me serious physical pain issues. I just felt wrung out by the whole ordeal and didn't have the energy to keep fighting with them, especially after I proved to them how they damaged the vehicle and their reaction was basically "you're annoying, go away, we already have your money" and just brushed me off.

The car had other issues too. It had begun to surge noticeably around corners due to something going on with the g-vector control, and I was one of the people who had the freezing engine mount issues with the vehicle shaking severely. That kind of dove-tails into my power loss issue, it just gets so cold here. The other members on this forum aren't getting their cars exposed to -20F like I was so I was the only person experiencing the issue at such an extreme level.

It all just..... snowballed into a bad ownership experience in the end. I'm still bothered by it. Such a great looking and driving car, but it wasn't meant to be for me.

Anyway, sorry for the long posts. I'll stick to constructive contributions from now on assuming I have any additional ones to contribute.

 

[sm1ke]

Yeah, I acknowledge that I look narrow-minded about it when viewed from the other side of the fence. There is more to this whole thing that I didn't go into because it's off-topic mostly. My experience with the dealership was, to put it bluntly, horrible and I just didn't want to deal with them. The next closest dealership is at least 3 hours away so it's these guys or nothing. The car was delivered with damage and they didn't want to fess up to it. I had the whole thing with the seat causing me serious physical pain issues. I just felt wrung out by the whole ordeal and didn't have the energy to keep fighting with them, especially after I proved to them how they damaged the vehicle and their reaction was basically "you're annoying, go away, we already have your money" and just brushed me off.

The car had other issues too. It had begun to surge noticeably around corners due to something going on with the g-vector control, and I was one of the people who had the freezing engine mount issues with the vehicle shaking severely. That kind of dove-tails into my power loss issue, it just gets so cold here. The other members on this forum aren't getting their cars exposed to -20F like I was so I was the only person experiencing the issue at such an extreme level.

It all just..... snowballed into a bad ownership experience in the end. I'm still bothered by it. Such a great looking and driving car, but it wasn't meant to be for me.

Anyway, sorry for the long posts. I'll stick to constructive contributions from now on assuming I have any additional ones to contribute.

Sorry to hear, that does sound like an ordeal. But just for future reference, the dealership doesn't have the final say, the corporate/head office does (and sometimes you can go even further and file a claim with the BBB). If you ever run into issues with a bad dealership of any brand in the future, contact the regional office and go over the dealership's head. Best of luck in the future.

 

[ColoradoDriver]

My NA loves the cold. And I for one love the consistency of my NA which punches when I want it to punch, which is often.

 

[Avoidin Deer]

My NA loves the cold. And I for one love the consistency of my NA which punches when I want it to punch, which is often.

I've been driving for nearly 50 years and I've never been in a vehicle (mine, family's, friends', rental cars) that have dogged in the cold...but when CatsPaw says -20°F is not uncommon for him, I guess I've never really driven in the cold.

And his dealership experience is adding insult (and frustration) to injury.

That's one problem with Mazda...dealerships are few and far between for many of us. My primary one is 20 miles away, then next nearest one is closer to 60. Not as bad as CatsPaw, but certainly nowhere near the competition and availability of other brands.

I'm going to my dealership next week for the first time since purchase for a seat issue and general maintenance. I'm curious how I'll get treated. Once the check has cleared, all leverage is lost.

 

[Avoidin Deer]

Anyway, sorry for the long posts. I'll stick to constructive contributions from now on assuming I have any additional ones to contribute.

I would hope no one feels the need to self-censure.

If that's the case, this forum has lots the bulk of its value. We may as well sit across from a real sales guy to be told how wondrous their machines are...why let internet strangers blow smoke up our tailpipes?

 

[sm1ke]

I would hope no one feels the need to self-censure.

I hope so too. As far as I can tell, we have all just been expressing our opinions and engaging in discussion. There are a few posters who come close to trolling (not anyone here), but for the most part, I think we've all been fairly civil.

 

[Avoidin Deer]

I hope so too. As far as I can tell, we have all just been expressing our opinions and engaging in discussion. There are a few posters who come close to trolling (not anyone here), but for the most part, I think we've all been fairly civil.

Exactly.

And we're all free to express our opinions...the good, the bad and the ugly.
That's what makes this forum a valuable resource: pre-purchase and post-purchase.

 

[CatsPaw]

I've been driving for nearly 50 years and I've never been in a vehicle (mine, family's, friends', rental cars) that have dogged in the cold...but when CatsPaw says -20°F is not uncommon for him, I guess I've never really driven in the cold.

In fairness I wouldn't call it common, but we always get a couple of weeks every winter where it is that bad. Sometimes worse. The windchills are genuinely dangerous around here during those times. It's hard on people and machines.

A lot of the discussion between members has been of temps in the 10-20F range, and I just wanted to voice the opinion that the problem keeps becoming more and more severe as those temps go lower and lower. I think the worst day in the two years I owned the vehicle was -27F with a -70F windchill. That was the day the engine had lost so much power that the car couldn't achieve highway speeds. It got up to about 60 mph and just........... couldn't go any faster. I only experienced this a few times, most days the car ran pretty normally even when during the winter.

My CX-5 felt pretty normal on days where the temp was 10F-20F for example. At least most of the time it did. Maybe just a little down on oomph, but nothing worth worrying about. It makes me very curious how the turbo version would behave at those extreme -20F temps.

 

[velocityc6]

Yeah, I acknowledge that I look narrow-minded about it when viewed from the other side of the fence. There is more to this whole thing that I didn't go into because it's off-topic mostly. My experience with the dealership was, to put it bluntly, horrible and I just didn't want to deal with them. The next closest dealership is at least 3 hours away so it's these guys or nothing. The car was delivered with damage and they didn't want to fess up to it. I had the whole thing with the seat causing me serious physical pain issues. I just felt wrung out by the whole ordeal and didn't have the energy to keep fighting with them, especially after I proved to them how they damaged the vehicle and their reaction was basically "you're annoying, go away, we already have your money" and just brushed me off.

The car had other issues too. It had begun to surge noticeably around corners due to something going on with the g-vector control, and I was one of the people who had the freezing engine mount issues with the vehicle shaking severely. That kind of dove-tails into my power loss issue, it just gets so cold here. The other members on this forum aren't getting their cars exposed to -20F like I was so I was the only person experiencing the issue at such an extreme level.

It all just..... snowballed into a bad ownership experience in the end. I'm still bothered by it. Such a great looking and driving car, but it wasn't meant to be for me.

Anyway, sorry for the long posts. I'll stick to constructive contributions from now on assuming I have any additional ones to contribute.

You might have actually stumbled upon your power problem without even realizing it on your 2017.

If your engine was shaking due to the cold motor mount issue, the engine sensors VERY likely were picking it up as phantom knocking (pinging/detonation).

It makes perfect sense, as the temps dropped lower the motor mounts became worse resulting in diveline vibration. This vibration was picked up by engine knock sensors, they would retard the timing and and as a result significantly reduce power.

Without knowing Mazda programed timing parameters theres no way to know exactly when a CEL would be thrown for excessive timing reduction.

Thats my theory since it lines up. I used to datalog a turbo car and just the act of (shifting) would produce enough driveline sudder the engine knock sensors would detect it and pull timing briefly.

 

[finch204]

You might have actually stumbled upon your power problem without even realizing it on your 2017.

If your engine was shaking due to the cold motor mount issue, the engine sensors VERY likely were picking it up as phantom knocking (pinging/detonation).

It makes perfect sense, as the temps dropped lower the motor mounts became worse resulting in diveline vibration. This vibration was picked up by engine knock sensors, they would retard the timing and and as a result significantly reduce power.

Without knowing Mazda programed timing parameters theres no way to know exactly when a CEL would be thrown for excessive timing reduction.

Thats my theory since it lines up. I used to datalog a turbo car and just the act of (shifting) would produce enough driveline sudder the engine knock sensors would detect it and pull timing briefly.

Hmm the idea of reduced power due to to false knock from vibrating motor mounts in cold weather, it does seem plausible to me.

 

[CatsPaw]

You might have actually stumbled upon your power problem without even realizing it on your 2017.

If your engine was shaking due to the cold motor mount issue, the engine sensors VERY likely were picking it up as phantom knocking (pinging/detonation).

It makes perfect sense, as the temps dropped lower the motor mounts became worse resulting in diveline vibration. This vibration was picked up by engine knock sensors, they would retard the timing and and as a result significantly reduce power.

Without knowing Mazda programed timing parameters theres no way to know exactly when a CEL would be thrown for excessive timing reduction.

Thats my theory since it lines up. I used to datalog a turbo car and just the act of (shifting) would produce enough driveline sudder the engine knock sensors would detect it and pull timing briefly.

That's a very good theory, and one I agree with it. I'm disappointed in myself for not realizing this. The Skyactiv 2.5G even has harmonic resonance sensors in addition to the normal knock sensors which makes it even more likely. They were added to detect LSPI (low speed pre-ignition) which DI engines are known for.

The vibration thing was mostly an idle condition. When the car was at speed it would smooth out, especially after running for a while. It wasn't entirely gone, however, and it's very possible there was still enough vibration to make the sensors react and pull ignition timing. The rear transmission mount was the primary culprit and it definitely introduced harmonic resonanace into the whole chassis because you could actually hearing the moaning noise inside the cabin.

I bet the harmonic sensors were reacting to it. Great post and great theory velocity!

 

[2001birdowner]

Experienced this again with “warmer” temps.

Drove for 8 miles at 70-75mph. Outside temperature was 31*F. Got off the highway and was stopped at 2 red lights within a half miles. Minimal to no boost as I accelerated to 40mph both times.

Stopped and turned the car off for 8 minutes. Got back in, temp was still 31*F. Pulled away and all the boost was there. why?

 

[Avoidin Deer]

Experienced this again with “warmer” temps.

Drove for 8 miles at 70-75mph. Outside temperature was 31*F. Got off the highway and was stopped at 2 red lights within a half miles. Minimal to no boost as I accelerated to 40mph both times.

Stopped and turned the car off for 8 minutes. Got back in, temp was still 31*F. Pulled away and all the boost was there. why?

I wonder if sitting still for a bit after driving allows the radiant heat from the engine to warm up the air around the sensors.

As you're driving, the wind blows the heat away and the sensors pick up the ambient air temp.

 

[velocityc6]

I wonder if sitting still for a bit after driving allows the radiant heat from the engine to warm up the air around the sensors.

As you're driving, the wind blows the heat away and the sensors pick up the ambient air temp.

This almost sounds like heat soak?! But at temps around freezing and airflow from highway speeds that doesn't make sense.

If this is common occurance on the turbo motor, thats very concerning.

 

[Avoidin Deer]

This almost sounds like heat soak?! But at temps around freezing and airflow from highway speeds that doesn't make sense.

If this is common occurance on the turbo motor, thats very concerning.

Just so I understand what you're saying, 'cause I'm not a mechanic and don't know what "heat soak" is, let me restate why I said what I said for your response:

-The going opinion is that the ECU chokes back the turbo when it's cold outside
--The state of "cold outside" is determined by the temps seen by sensors

-2001birdowner observed that his turbo choked back while driving around in the cold
-2001birdowner observed that his turbo came back after being parked for a few minutes

My hypothesis is:
-While in motion, the airflow causes the sensors to [accurately] see "cold"
--The turbo is choked back
-When stationary after driving, the radiant heat causes sensors to see "warm"
--The turbo operates normally for a period of time, until the sensors see "cold" again

 

[CX-5um]

Hmm if the heat soak hypotheses is true then installing a short ram intake would produce more heat soak ..........incoming air is warmed from engine bay.

 

[velocityc6]

Just so I understand what you're saying, 'cause I'm not a mechanic and don't know what "heat soak" is, let me restate why I said what I said for your response:

-The going opinion is that the ECU chokes back the turbo when it's cold outside
--The state of "cold outside" is determined by the temps seen by sensors

-2001birdowner observed that his turbo choked back while driving around in the cold
-2001birdowner observed that his turbo came back after being parked for a few minutes

My hypothesis is:
-While in motion, the airflow causes the sensors to [accurately] see "cold"
--The turbo is choked back
-When stationary after driving, the radiant heat causes sensors to see "warm"
--The turbo operates normally for a period of time, until the sensors see "cold" again

That does sound possible.