Timing Curve

[TurfBurn]

Does anyone know a general timing curve for our cars as to what is "standard"?

At the least I'd like to know what the idle timing is... my car WAS at 10 degrees at 500 rpms and 15 degrees at 100 rpms... I have it bumped to 19 at 1000 and like 14 at 500 and it is doing much better right now (this is not advance this is straight up timing so 19 degrees TDC is where I am at now). Shawn at Mazdaformance said that the MSP was at around 28 at 6k and full boost I believe. So I'm just wondering what a standard NA or MSP timing is across the board if anyone has any ideas. I know I'm supposed to run more advanced during vaccuum than boost... which is easy to do on the microtech... but I just want to know where I should be at... I don't want to really screw up with my timing and muck up the engine... but it does seem to start and idle much better with my new timing settings...

Thanks for the help!

Steve

 

[PaulMP3]

Bump for turf's timing.


Good luck with the timing tuning (thumb)

 

[TurfBurn]

You know your timing is messed up when you can bump to 11 psi from 7 psi and you are NO faster... the timing is set up really odd right now pulling like 17 degrees of timing at 10 psi and like 10 degrees at 7 psi... thankfully I have a working JandS so now I can go fix that! I also have the GT2 performance computer so I can also very much compare my tunes and see how I'm doing and where I'm putting the peak power.

But I still need some help on this timing... I want to know how much retard there is in the midrange compared to the upper ends and how much timing I SHOULD be pulling for boost and so forth.

Thanks in advance for the help.

(and thanks for the bump! )

 

[igdrasil]

Probably a datalog unit will tell, I remember one guy here tried that but its not a protege fan....
The nickname is something like DSM...

 

[TurfBurn]

Yeah... I need the stock protege timing so I can get the microtech close or something... but you did just give me an idea... If you haven't heard there are now 3 Mazda Protege's in the family... Little Beavis with his turbo MP3.. me with my Turbo MP3 and now the youngest brother has a MSP Gotta love it! But I wonder if the autotap unit I borrowed from Beavis may be able to get the timing off the MSP for me

 

[Bigg Tim]

Yeah... I need the stock protege timing so I can get the microtech close or something... but you did just give me an idea... If you haven't heard there are now 3 Mazda Protege's in the family... Little Beavis with his turbo MP3.. me with my Turbo MP3 and now the youngest brother has a MSP Gotta love it! But I wonder if the autotap unit I borrowed from Beavis may be able to get the timing off the MSP for me

Man that would be awesome if you could get the timing numbers from the MSP and MP3 to see the difference. I'd like to know what the differencers are, and also what the stock MP3 timing numbers are. Don't know if you were going to post them, but if your were, then that woulod be cool.

 

[TurfBurn]

well I do actually plan to post whatever I do find... but I don't have any way to get the MP3 numbers... until Beavis does it or we use his car... but we'll at least get the Mazda numbers.... it won't be a complete matrix... but I'll get the best that I can!

 

[Chojin]

Steve -

On the E6X, the timing for my MSP at 6K rpm and 7.5psi is 21 deg. and at 6.5K rpm and 7.5psi is 23 deg.

-Shawn

 

[TurfBurn]

any idea what midrange and idle are about??

So the fact that I'm at 29 degrees at 5K and 7 psi ... kidding... it is actually pulling about 10 or 11 degrees at 7 psi but unboosted I am at 29 at 5k.... so I'm around 19 there I think... I'll double check... Thanks Shawn! I was half going to call you this morning but had been too busy

Later.

Steve

 

[Chojin]

Hey Steve -

Here's a Cliff's Notes version of my E6X timing table:

This is for a MSP (CAI, FMIC, 60mm D/P, and 3" cat-back) running stock injectors and stock boost.

-Shawn

any idea what midrange and idle are about??

So the fact that I'm at 29 degrees at 5K and 7 psi ... kidding... it is actually pulling about 10 or 11 degrees at 7 psi but unboosted I am at 29 at 5k.... so I'm around 19 there I think... I'll double check... Thanks Shawn! I was half going to call you this morning but had been too busy

Later.

Steve

 

[igdrasil]

Thats a good info, now we need the stock timing....I will do all my effort to try finding it too.

 

[TurfBurn]

That is awesome info... gives me a very good idea... the other thing I should be able to provide when I get through all this stuff is an even more aggressive table based off what the JandS shows to be the "limit" of safety on the tuning.

I'll hopefully tomorrow night have the stock MSP timing.... the only concern I have with the stock timing from an MSP is that the cams are slightly different and I've heard that can have a reasonable effect on your timing... but I may be confusing myself with the difference in cam timing versus ignition timing. Still plenty to learn

In other news (to hijack my own thread) my starter motor gave up... it'll spin, but it doesn't engage the flywheel.. that's on the docket for tonight's nightly car effort... Will update if anything is of interest with it... so I can't do my timing tonight... have to wait until my car can be other than push started.

Thanks,

steve

EDIT: No mazdaspeed cams exist.

 

[Kooldino]

Different cams in the MSP? Huh? I never heard this...

Steve - if you come to NJ for the dyno day, we can use my PDA tool to see what my timing is before I the MPI mods it.

 

[TurfBurn]

I don't know if we are still planning on coming out or not... haven't talked to Jeremy about it in a while.. I'll see... but yeah that'd be excellent...

I found mazdaspeed cams on the mazdaspeed official website... one reason or another I was very much under the understanding/impression that the MSP has different cams... but I could be mistaken...

EDIT: No Mazdaspeed cams exist!!!

 

[Little Beavis]

Cams are not different. Careful with your statements junior.

MPI day still up in the air.

Timing info good. . .have MP3 ECU to test timing on, but lack the time to do it. . .could happily plug it into someone's unboosted Protege for testing but will not run it boosted without some retard in place. Will learn more once I return home from this damn business trip to the east coast (how do you people live here)?

 

[TurfBurn]

Like I said.. I could be mistaken. After poking around more I'm sure I was mistaken as far as the MSP having different cams.... so before that becomes a rumor... it is as Beavis says... no different cams on the MSP...

I swear that I did see a cam upgrade available for the protege though through Mazda Motorsports Racing Support... so once I have my membership in week or so I'll see if I can confirm that... I had found a link to a page on their website that had listed something as such... but have not been able to find it again . So I'll have to poke around once I have full access.

Hopefully tonight I may get a chance to try and grab at least some timing numbers from the MSP and see how the stock numbers (reflashed) compare to what Shawn posted above... and then hopefully later against that of an MP3, and maybe even against a "stock" Protege as well.

 

[DooMer_MP3]

There was a Mazdaspeed cam, but it was just a *very slightly* more aggressive cam offered for the aftermarket with the label "Mazdaspeed intake cam". I believe it was just the J-Spec cam. It was not used in the MSP though.

Chris

 

[TurfBurn]

How many people do we know of that would have capability to read timing numbers other than me and what Shawn provided? Perf, Wagner, or MPNick??? I'd assume they should have some numbers maybe? Does anyone else have a system like Autotap that could read this stuff as well? Just seeing if I can lessen my work load with this whole deal My hands are rather full with the car lately... and I haven't even unpacked from my move two weeks ago!

 

[TurfBurn]

tried logging timing with the AutoTap tonight... didn't seem to do a good job.. but i need to get the data files off the laptop and on to my main machine so that I can actually see the file.. but it doesn't seem to log very quickly (like once ever 3 seconds???) so I can't get enough resolution to see what is going on on the stock vehicle... but I'll let you know.. I can say though that at 700 rpm's idle it does hold about 10 degrees of timing advance.

 

[TurfBurn]

I was never able to get anything viable off of the autotap software, just didn't seem to read fast enough for me to get an actual value. Could have been the laptop or something else. But I never got anything useful so I gave up. If I do ever find a way, I'll let you know!

I finally have my JandS in my car and up and running. I also finally dialed it in on the sensitivity tonight. I changed fuel pumps and my maps are messed up because the fuel pressure is different for one reason or another. So I'm also currently going through and correcting that. I'm going to get the fuel all dialed in more or less (I'm aiming around 11.9-12.2 hopefully) and then will do the timing. I'll post general results for you guys as far as the timing when I get a chance. I'm basically going to push timing until I start getting lights off the JandS and then pull the timing back off from there. Hopefully I should be able to set a pretty aggressive tune that way. I'm also going through and doing this with a hot and well worked engine so that it will be safe when it's colder and so forth. I'll update more tonight or tomorrow when I finish off more of the tuning stuff. It may have to wait until tomorrow as my girlfriend who has been operating the computer for me while I give her instructions has a bit of motion sickness from all the up and down and staring at the computer screen. So anyway... we'll see! I'll update as i can for you guys.

Later.

Steve