The GOD Delusion:
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gone_fishin
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Donas64 said:
I am relieved to know that I am not the only one who has noticed this. Donas you took the words right out of my mouth. It saddens me, and I fear for my future kids as well.
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gone_fishin said:
Well not all that are without religion or GOD are moraless creatures. Religion or belief in a higher power does not make the man. Life is full of many choices...and I have managed to do really well without god or religion. (And I am not talking about material wealth).
So to generalize and say the it is the Godless who are corupting todays population, I would call that a bit of a stretch.
1killercls said:
I don't think anyone has made that claim. In fact I know several pastors kids that are just terrible terrible children (but thats another story in and of itself). Religion or belief in a higher power might not make you, but it's a crucial part of who several people are and they view themselves and how they live their lives and how they make their chocies through the prism of their faith and their belief and moral values.
The statements I made, I made in reference to the way I choose to live my life and how I will choose to raise my family.
There are several who generalize Christians as zealots, judgemental hypocrites who try to shove their will on others. Is that any more of a stretch?
I mean just take a look at Rosie O' Donell who make the ridiculous claim that radical Christianity is just as much if not more than a threat of radical Islam. I dare anyone to tell me that thats not a stretch.
You have The Amish who are about as radical as it gets in terms of fundamental religious beliefs: A madman comes to their community and kills several of their young girls. Does the Amish community revolt and begin to burn down the surrounding neighborhoods? Do they threaten the lives of those in the outlying areas? No. They forgive the man, forgive his family, and even invite the killers family to the funeral. I want my heart and my attitude to be like theirs.
To summarize, while Christians are not perfect, I will not apologize for what I believe and I will in a respectful and loving way share me beliefs with others.
I do see a decline in the morality of American society and I am even guilty of succumbing to some of the garbage myself. But I try to see the best in others and try to live out my faith as best as I can.
This thread has come a long way and covered a lot of ground since I was last able to post. There is way too much to say.
In response to the question Does a lifestyle steeped in religious tradition give our children a moral compass, I would have to say that it depends on what other factors that child is exposed to. When I said back when we find these truths to be self evident I was doing more than just quoting a profound document, I was reciting an axiom. We learn though experience that a sustainable lifestyle depends on sensible and responsible judgments. Living a lie for instance is a symptom of a life, or a nation in stagnation. You dont need the bible to tell you that when you keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results each time, you going to be constantly frustrated with lack of progress, which is what we have now. You dont need the bible to tell you that not being fateful to your chosen spouse is hurtful and is often times indication of a lifestyle in decay. The bible does talk about these things, but the wisdom is not exclusively the domain of religion. The stories are simply used as a way of passing down to younger generations the lessons of old, with of course heavy emphasis on devotion. Henry Rollins said it best in his song Liar when he said Ill tell you things you already know so you can say, I identify with you so much?
The discussion about the decline in Americas values is one that depends on observation. Look at the world through the eyes of a child and you will see what it is that is guiding these kids. IN a word, MONEY! What is it that compels a child to want over priced shoes made by children in another country making a dollar a day? What is it that makes a child want 22 wheels on their Escalade when were at war in the Middle East over oil, or to spend $80.00 on a pair of pants that are already worn out to the point of having huge holes in them? Why is it obesity is such an issue with todays younger generations? Why in the hell are children smoking still? Why are kids having sex so early, and with so many partners? McDonalds, BET, MTV, Phillip Morris, Columbia Records, Starbucks, and a host of other corporate entities have a direct uplink to your living room. Their in our schools and in our homes and our kids are learning about life from these corporations that are only too eager to train their next generation of consumers. Next time you buy an Xbox game for your youngster, actually play it and listen to what it is telling these kids. In a country where Porn is an industry with shares being traded on the stock market, we can only expect woman to be objectified and reduced to their basic physical attributes.
Kids have no social conscience so they don't realize what's at stake when they BUY into the American dream, with their parents money of course. They dont understand the level of suffering that goes into making this lifestyle, nor do many parents I might ad thanks to a horribly complacent and compliant media. I was listening to an Islamic cleric talk about the marketing to children in the Arab nations and he made very valid points. He said that it is up to the elders to guide the content of the media that their youngest generations are exposed to. He was concerned that the west was trying to usurp their value structure with a Bling Bling campaign and he wasnt having it. The struggle again comes down to The Prophet vs the Profit.
Im not saying that Islam is the way to go, quite the contrary. What I am saying is lets be honest about just who is responsible for what. The share holders are us.
I would have to say that I too am an agnostic. We as humans have 5 senses and 1 little mind, and with those senses we can see and understand about a 1 ten trillionth of what our world actually is. To say that we have any concept of God is over ambitious to the point of being, well, you get the idea.
I'm not even going to talk about the universe and such.
In response to the question Does a lifestyle steeped in religious tradition give our children a moral compass, I would have to say that it depends on what other factors that child is exposed to. When I said back when we find these truths to be self evident I was doing more than just quoting a profound document, I was reciting an axiom. We learn though experience that a sustainable lifestyle depends on sensible and responsible judgments. Living a lie for instance is a symptom of a life, or a nation in stagnation. You dont need the bible to tell you that when you keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results each time, you going to be constantly frustrated with lack of progress, which is what we have now. You dont need the bible to tell you that not being fateful to your chosen spouse is hurtful and is often times indication of a lifestyle in decay. The bible does talk about these things, but the wisdom is not exclusively the domain of religion. The stories are simply used as a way of passing down to younger generations the lessons of old, with of course heavy emphasis on devotion. Henry Rollins said it best in his song Liar when he said Ill tell you things you already know so you can say, I identify with you so much?
The discussion about the decline in Americas values is one that depends on observation. Look at the world through the eyes of a child and you will see what it is that is guiding these kids. IN a word, MONEY! What is it that compels a child to want over priced shoes made by children in another country making a dollar a day? What is it that makes a child want 22 wheels on their Escalade when were at war in the Middle East over oil, or to spend $80.00 on a pair of pants that are already worn out to the point of having huge holes in them? Why is it obesity is such an issue with todays younger generations? Why in the hell are children smoking still? Why are kids having sex so early, and with so many partners? McDonalds, BET, MTV, Phillip Morris, Columbia Records, Starbucks, and a host of other corporate entities have a direct uplink to your living room. Their in our schools and in our homes and our kids are learning about life from these corporations that are only too eager to train their next generation of consumers. Next time you buy an Xbox game for your youngster, actually play it and listen to what it is telling these kids. In a country where Porn is an industry with shares being traded on the stock market, we can only expect woman to be objectified and reduced to their basic physical attributes.
Kids have no social conscience so they don't realize what's at stake when they BUY into the American dream, with their parents money of course. They dont understand the level of suffering that goes into making this lifestyle, nor do many parents I might ad thanks to a horribly complacent and compliant media. I was listening to an Islamic cleric talk about the marketing to children in the Arab nations and he made very valid points. He said that it is up to the elders to guide the content of the media that their youngest generations are exposed to. He was concerned that the west was trying to usurp their value structure with a Bling Bling campaign and he wasnt having it. The struggle again comes down to The Prophet vs the Profit.
Im not saying that Islam is the way to go, quite the contrary. What I am saying is lets be honest about just who is responsible for what. The share holders are us.
I would have to say that I too am an agnostic. We as humans have 5 senses and 1 little mind, and with those senses we can see and understand about a 1 ten trillionth of what our world actually is. To say that we have any concept of God is over ambitious to the point of being, well, you get the idea.
I'm not even going to talk about the universe and such.
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gone_fishin
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- One of a Kind '99
1st Gen said:
I just want you all to know that in my agreement with Donas' earlier comment regarding the deterioration of our society as a whole, there were no reproach or citation of any group in particular-- and a thank you to Donas for mentioning that in my absence.
1st Gen you have some excellent observations. I did however, want to interject on that last bit (quoted above). As a scientist, I cannot but acknowledge the indispensibility of skepticism and the inherent value of questioning the validity of inductive knowledge acquired through human reason-- that steadfast awareness of the limitations therein gives us a foothold in the pursuit of truth and prevents us from overstepping its bounds. You are absolutely correct in affirming that there are concise restraints surrounding the capabilities of the five faculties of reason. Descartes illustrates in his Discourse on knowledge and Meditations on First Philosophy that there are gradients of skeptecism; however, within these gradients there are defined limitations demarcating what we cannot infer, and conversely what we can infer by these means. He concludes that although hyperbolic doubt is seemingly limitless in its denunciative capabilities, there is an inherent boundary in that one cannot doubt their own existence as a thinking entity-- hense the phrase "cogito ergo sum-- I think therefore I am" or in Descartes native tounge, "je pense donc je suis". He goes on to prove that from that inference forward as a foundation of credibility, we are capable of determining, and thus are capable of building a commonwealth of certain truths ascertained through the inductive capabilities of our faculties. And although the confines of our minds are clearly finite, the ammount of credible and ascertainable truths (of the finite realm of existence) available to our intellect is not. It should be aparant then, that within the finite capacity of our mind, there is a spectrum of utilization among us. As some choose to live richly in this respect, others choose to live in indigence to which skepticism seems to inculcate. Furthermore, should we not attempt to enrich our lives to the greatest degree with an ever-increasing wealth of knowledge so as to further cultivate our character? Should we sanction this process by allowing our sense of skepticism to presuppose truths which are outside the inductive capabilities of our faculties-- truths which have been delineated by science and the like? To this effect, I cannot personally accept certain un-facultatively deducable truths over others simply because one realm is supported by scientific theory and another is not. Although there is an ever-present rift between the material realm of existence and the non-material which we refer to as deific; and moreover although I am fully aware that my reason will never be able to grasp its likeness, I am aware that in this observation, my reason will never be able to disprove its existence-- and this for so many (including myself) is the rudiment of faith.
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gone_fishin said:
I'm going to have to dig out my websters to make sure I get it. Great work.
In the mean time, there is this.
I cant prove that God doesnt exist any more that anyone can prove that God does. To use that as a measure of probability is indeed a leap of faith. If we cant disprove the flying spaghetti monster then should we allow for the possibility?
I think, therefore I am. If I allow my imagination to be stimulated by infinite possibilities, then I can imagine the beginnings of life. I think, therefore I am a human with romantic notions of fancy and wonder that if left without tether, would fly to the realm of God and warm myself by the light of his truth. Is it true because I can imagine it? No.
Albert Einstein
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
The possibilities are endless, but should we fashion a system of faith around them? No. Einstein thought up tests like the flashlight on the train moving the speed of light, and I often wonder if he did indeed see with the vision of a prophet. Such is the power of imagination.
If I imagine myself as a bird, can I fly? Thus we run into the limitations of the flesh. We are at last no more than human. Step outside the box of collective knowledge into the realm of insanity and you are still only a human. A human imagining the realm of God with such fervor as to actually be speaking with God can in my assessment be diagnosed as insane.
Everyone else must simply take on faith that the flying spaghetti monster is indeed a joke and that God is the real creator of our world. I find the physical world with the likes of Einstein to be much more enticing to my imagination. Was he insane? I dont think so, but then Im not qualified to judge.
Sorry if I dont make much sense. I dont have any more time to proof read.
Gone
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gone_fishin
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- One of a Kind '99
1st Gen said:
Interesting opinion, although I didn't want to confuse the realm of imagination with the five faculties of inductive reasoning-- as they completely different. Some philosophers (such as Descartes) would argue that we can make no inferences from imaginative conceptions of which we have no prior inductive knowledge of. They acknowledge that we may conceptualize infinite hypothetics (i.e. infinity-- or the likes of Einstein's "thought experiments") but they cannot be cognatively fathomed. For example, those who have studied einstinein relativity, quantum mechanics, calculus, and chemistry must accept non-inductive truths on faith. To clarify, will you ever witness (by your five faculties of reason) the propigation of photons through the space-time continuum or the likes of infinity and it's applied concepts in calculus? What about the aliphatic hydrocarbons and organic macromolecules that compose basal level intracellular proteins within your body-- or furthermore the quirk sub-subatomic particles whose resonance is believed to compose the third dimension? Yet although they require "faith", they remain undisputed. Hense, why I said as a scientist, I cannot discriminate between non-inductive truths simply because some are supported by scientific theory and others are classified as "deific". If you enjoy using your imagination with respect, I have some very imagination-boggling "thought experiments" on the ubiquitous presence of the infinite within the finite.
With regard to "imagination", Descartes in his discourse on knowledge illustrates the clearly defined separation between inductive reasoning and imagination. Ironically, he uses this incompatibility as his first premise in his proof for the existence of God. I encourage you to read it. Also, I encourage you to read Hume's A Treatise on Human Understanding for some unique insight on this topic. He was a famous Pyrrhonist and Athiest and has some excellent observations about the capabilities imagination versus reason-- and the validity of inferences made therein. I encourage you to read that also.
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First, may i also suggest a book: The Celestine Prophecy. Its not anti-religion or pro-religion, its more about a different way of looking at the world and the things that we perceive to exist in the way that they exist.
We also have a real world example of how "dangerous" religion or a belief can be. These "terrorists" are religious fanatics, believing that their suicidal attacks on the US, or who ever, earn them the right to the afterlife. We can even look at cults...Waco, mass suicides, etc. A belif is a truly powerful thing. Prove it. Prove the existance of a belief. You cant, you can only see the effects of a belief, whether its good or bad. Prove that your wife loves you...you can name all the things wonderful things she does or all the crap she puts up with(car parts, lol), but you cant really prove to me that she loves you. You know she loves you, you just KNOW. Thats the way with religion and God, some people just KNOW and others dont. I believe in the possibility of a higher being.
We also have a real world example of how "dangerous" religion or a belief can be. These "terrorists" are religious fanatics, believing that their suicidal attacks on the US, or who ever, earn them the right to the afterlife. We can even look at cults...Waco, mass suicides, etc. A belif is a truly powerful thing. Prove it. Prove the existance of a belief. You cant, you can only see the effects of a belief, whether its good or bad. Prove that your wife loves you...you can name all the things wonderful things she does or all the crap she puts up with(car parts, lol), but you cant really prove to me that she loves you. You know she loves you, you just KNOW. Thats the way with religion and God, some people just KNOW and others dont. I believe in the possibility of a higher being.
gone_fishin said:
More opinion.
Thanks for the heads up on the books btw.
The difference between theory based on science and theory based on deific studies are that science, although not sensed by the five faculties of reason, can predict outcomes and be reproduced if the same formula are followed. Ill use cold fusion as an example. Someone comes along and says that theyve figured out how to have a cold fusion reaction in a laboratory. As it turns out, nobody else was able to reproduce their findings. The world looked at them with dismay as to what the breakdown could be. It turned out that they didnt have cold fusion at all so what they described as a formula was flawed. Faith didnt really enter into the picture. I would in fact state that the five senses are used in all the examples you described because there can be no experiments without the assimilation of information through at least one of the five senses. The culmination of one experiment leads to another moving forward through time and learning.
For religion, time and learning stands still
Science also allows for new information as well. When Galileo discovered that the earth wasnt at the center of the solar system, he began to understand the observations he had been making of the heavens. The discoveries just keep coming too. Aristotle had said that the Earth was at the center of the solar system but he was wrong and observation showed that, in spite of what the church wanted. Galileo was almost killed for his discovery because it challenged the authority of the church.
With the fossil record, new information is eagerly sought after. Understanding comes from the study and research of new information and the piecing together of the puzzle we know as evolution. Creationists are threatened by new information because there is a very good chance religion doesnt account for, and cant explain the new discoveries.
I kind of wonder; if we ever engage in space travel to other planets, will there be missionaries on board?
Science shows us that a forest of diverse tree types is much more likely to survive an infestation than a forest of money trees like pine for instance. If you have a thousand acres of pine trees and a bud worm comes along, you stand a very good chance of loosing the whole forest. Diversity is the answer to saving the forest, and all the animals that live in it. Diversity is what makes a forest what it is with specialized species of plants and animals that often times are found no place else on earth. I purpose that the same holds true for people. Diverse people make for diverse ideas. Religion stifles that nursery of earthly wisdom as it causes all who fall to its spell to think in terms of heaven and hell.
Science needs a moral compass. It needs a value structure that prevents freakish experiments and torture in the name of research. I most certainly hope its not organized religion, or the nemesis of mankind laissez-faire economics. I wonder what Oprah is up to?
Theres more but Im tired.
edited for clarity
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gone_fishin
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- One of a Kind '99
While we're on the topic of good reads, I think you would also enjoy Friedrich Nietzsche's work. His overarching theme is the self-impowerment of man in enlightenment and so forth. He was traditionally an agnostic, in addition to being slightly maniacal I might add; however, he has some excellent concepts and insights.
Also, your thought processes remind me a lot of that of Gabriel Marcel-- a post modern existentialist philosopher (formerly an athiest but later a converted Christian). I think you'd like his work.
And if you're interested in the underpinning of ethics and the like, might I recommend Immanuel Kant's work, specifically "Grounding for the Metaphysics of the Morals". If you have never studied it, Metaphysics aims at identifying the primary causality of that which is being examined. It's fascinating, and very appealing to the imagination.
Also, your thought processes remind me a lot of that of Gabriel Marcel-- a post modern existentialist philosopher (formerly an athiest but later a converted Christian). I think you'd like his work.
And if you're interested in the underpinning of ethics and the like, might I recommend Immanuel Kant's work, specifically "Grounding for the Metaphysics of the Morals". If you have never studied it, Metaphysics aims at identifying the primary causality of that which is being examined. It's fascinating, and very appealing to the imagination.
1st Gen said:
Once again I cannot sit by idly as you make it seem as if that Christians are a bunch of drones who all think alike, talk alike, are incapale of scientific reason, or diverse thought and are under some sort of spell.
It's frankly slightly insulting and is an untrue protrayal of Christians. The MAIN thing christians have in common is their belief that Jesus Christ is our lord and savior who died for our sins so that we might have eternal life and have communion with God. We live our life with an emphasis of a relationship with Jesus Christ.
I believe in science as an explanation for Gods creation. I believe that God has given man an intellect to think and experiment and explore and do marvelous things but our intelligence is not limitless so we cannot comprehend a limitless God. I also believe most importantly that God has given man free will. To heed his words and advice and guides or to dismiss him. God will not in this day and age strike you down for not believing in him as might have happened in the old testament. The choice is yours to make. I have made my choice.
But this nonsense that Chrsitians are all cookie cutter cardboard cut-outs with no sense of indviduality or aspirations or common sense and a blind lemming-like devotion to Christ. It's not lemming like, it's a conscious choice. A willing submission. No body forces anyone to become a Christian, and if they do, they are wrong and I would be the first one to say so.
There are Christians in all fields of work and stations of life who excel in their positions and who give the glory of their achievements not to themselves but to God. So I'm all for discussion and debate and deep thinking. But that comment just rubbed me the wrong way. I know those are your feeling and you are entitled to your opinion so I'm not mad or anything. I'm just also stating my opinion.
