Start of an engine problem? I have a feeling...

[ccrunner2011]

Hey mazda community,

I have an '02 protege5 with ~141k miles. It is the 4 speed auto.

Past few days I've noticed it running a bit rougher, a little more vibrations than usual with these cars. Mounts are all good - replaced all but the left tranny mount spring 2012. Engine at idle sounds clean as usual. As soon as I hit about 3K RPM's I get what sounds like chatter/clapping... I was in gear at the time so I thought maybe it was the tranny being dumb. I pulled it into neutral and slowly let the RPM's climb to right at 3K and I got the same chatter. I've narrowed it down to the engine side... It's not burning any oil that I'm aware of (I check once every 2 weeks). The only thing is there's a bit more soot/black on the exhaust tip (carbon build-up)




Any things to check specific to these cars? I'm a mechanic and my dad's one hell of one... so don't shy away from telling me.


To me it sounds like either valve/rod chatter or a bearing going bad. I drive the car harder than I probably should, but it rarely ever sees 5K RPM so I don't see what's going on...

AC - off
heat - off
No check engine lights- yet


Appreciate it!
-Martin

 

[tweety2300]

Off the top of my head

Stuck valve or lifter
Rod bearing
Butterfly in the intake manifold

 

[ccrunner2011]

That butterfly in the intake manifold.. Are you talking about the first one near the MAF or the VCIS butterfly... A month or 2 ago I was getting an intermittent P1569 (VCIS low input) and it was robbing the car of what little power it has.
I thought I read the VCIS opened up at around 4K

I'll throw a wrench at the valve cover tonight and see if I got any weird stuff going on. I just don't want to deal with an engine rebuild...cuz if i do... It's getting built for being turbocharged.

 

[Installshield 2]

If your oil is still in good shape, i'd lean more towards the cylinder head side of things. These engines have solid lifters, which need to be shimmed back into spec every so often...improper lifter/cam lash will burn oil, but nothing like what the bottom end will do when it goes...very easy job for a mechanic, so you're ok there...but, doesn't mean its exactly that...

if you're positive you're not going through oil kind of noticeably (we need more info...how many miles was '2 weeks ago'?)...You can probably rule out piston rings...can probably rule out crank and rod bearings also...as these will very quickly give noticeable driving problems when compared to valve clearance...can you do a compression test?...that will rule out the rings...

As far as these specific cars...There is a 'VTCS' system, which is a ULEV compliance upgrade to the intake manifold...this system is notorious for making noise at the specific rpm range you're speaking of...its only normal for this to happen at low temperature operating (<149*F water temp)...but i've read a few posts over the years of a bad VTCS vacuum line/actuator that will leave it stuck on...not allowing it to close properly once engine temp rises, thus making noise in those rev ranges all the time...but this noise is something you should notice every time the car has been 'cold' since you bought it...its a very noticeable rattle, very much like valve problems (which freaked out pretty much every new Protege 5 owner 11 years ago), but is deemed normal...

to my understanding (though, its been a while)...this won't throw a code, either...the ecu will only check for the VTCS system to respond and turn on when cold...but vacuum and the IAT sensor will automatically close it after it warms up (unless of course the actuator jammed or something)...without the ecu doing a diagnostics check to make sure it closed...could be wrong, but thats what i vaguely remember seeing.

EDIT: now you're getting somewhere...and i forgot to mention the VICS also. VICS is sort of similar to the VTCS, but is used under all operating temperatures...if you threw a code related to that recently, i'd bet something is up with the vacuum lines associated with the system. Improper vacuum will result in those internal butterflies flapping and vibrating around in there...at least potentially, as this would be the first time i've read about it.

 

[ccrunner2011]

If your oil is still in good shape, i'd lean more towards the cylinder head side of things. These engines have solid lifters, which need to be shimmed back into spec every so often...improper lifter/cam lash will burn oil, but nothing like what the bottom end will do when it goes...very easy job for a mechanic, so you're ok there...but, doesn't mean its exactly that...

if you're positive you're not going through oil kind of noticeably (we need more info...how many miles was '2 weeks ago'?)...You can probably rule out piston rings...can probably rule out crank and rod bearings also...as these will very quickly give noticeable driving problems when compared to valve clearance...can you do a compression test?...that will rule out the rings...

As far as these specific cars...There is a 'VTCS' system, which is a ULEV compliance upgrade to the intake manifold...this system is notorious for making noise at the specific rpm range you're speaking of...its only normal for this to happen at low temperature operating (<149*F water temp)...but i've read a few posts over the years of a bad VTCS vacuum line/actuator that will leave it stuck on...not allowing it to close properly once engine temp rises, thus making noise in those rev ranges all the time...but this noise is something you should notice every time the car has been 'cold' since you bought it...its a very noticeable rattle, very much like valve problems (which freaked out pretty much every new Protege 5 owner 11 years ago), but is deemed normal...

to my understanding (though, its been a while)...this won't throw a code, either...the ecu will only check for the VTCS system to respond and turn on when cold...but vacuum and the IAT sensor will automatically close it after it warms up (unless of course the actuator jammed or something)...without the ecu doing a diagnostics check to make sure it closed...could be wrong, but thats what i vaguely remember seeing.

EDIT: now you're getting somewhere...and i forgot to mention the VICS also. VICS is sort of similar to the VTCS, but is used under all operating temperatures...if you threw a code related to that recently, i'd bet something is up with the vacuum lines associated with the system. Improper vacuum will result in those internal butterflies flapping and vibrating around in there...at least potentially, as this would be the first time i've read about it.

I meant VTCS (p1569)... It's been a long day at work... Excuse my stupidity as I probably confused a few people...

If it's only happening at lower op. temperatures I think I can rule this out unless it's sticking for whatever reason...as you said. The thermostat I have in the car should open ~160... Wouldn't there be a code if that VTCS was stuck on due to the vacuum line? This may just be what this thing is...took a look at a manual.

You're saying the VTCS actuator may be jammed or maybe not releasing/opening properly.. should be a pretty easy thing to check... just gotta let the sucker cool down and watch it.



Mileage 2 weeks ago was probably right at 141K I have a 30+ mile driving day... I'm sitting at 141,600 right now. Last oil change was 1395**.

 

[Installshield 2]

yeah, dig around on the forums a little about VTCS issues. I know i saw something like this at one point, but i've been on and off of here for nearly 10 years...i can't recall off of the top of my head what codes are associated with it...but remember something about there being NO code for some users claiming theirs was sticking 'on'...I'm positive there is a code for if you remove the system, which happens at start up when the ecu attempts to activate it...but can't remember if there is one for 'deactivation'...if that makes sense...

if you look at the passenger side of the intake manifold, you can see the mechanism that opens and closes the VTCS butterflies...I'm by no means saying this is it...just commenting that its, for most people, a noticeable sound at the particular rpm you are talking about...and if you actually check the oil as often as you're saying, any mechanical problems big enough to create that much sound will start to illustrate themselves through oil consumption...

this VTCS thing could still apply to your exhaust build up also...the system closes the runners slightly...at low temp...this actually cleans combustion as turbulence will aid in better mixing of air and fuel...but after warmed up and under heavier loads...its effectively just chocking the engine, and making it run extremely rich...the engine won't throw any AFR codes either, because the MAF and IAT are working properly...and this is occurring after those sensors...air pressure gradients may eventually make the MAF flip out, giving you codes associated with MAF failure...but that would probably be pretty random...

 

[ccrunner2011]

Well guys more then likely I have an top-end rebuild... Top end was starved of oil by the looks of it. I took a little bendable mirror and a flash light and under the valve cover was not near as lubed up as it should be. I checked the oil again... and it was way low. (I checked oil last week and it was right under "full" even when cold...) I'll pull the cover off this weekend and see what's going on for sure. After letting it idle until the fans turned on I slowly increased RPM and started hearing the chatter throughout all RPMs - at idle it wasn't noticable...

I'm honestly surprised... I had right at 3.5 (guess) quarts in and then it goes to almost none in a weeks time? No smoking/burning smell? I would think burning/losing probably 2 quarts in a week would show somewhere...? ADD** I almost wonder if there's a seal busted somewhere as there seems to be a lot of oil on the backside (intake side) of the engine that wasn't there last time I did an oil change. It's above the oil filter location and coming off the head area....so it's not the oil filter itself.

 

[sparkstyl]

bump.

I having the same problems with my 2002 P5. How ever I get smoke out the pipe at cold op temps. Im thinking head problems too.

 

[Installshield 2]

yeah, then its probably back to what tweety mentioned...a valve burning open one of the first things to occur when the head over heats...

 

[ccrunner2011]

bump.

I having the same problems with my 2002 P5. How ever I get smoke out the pipe at cold op temps. Im thinking head problems too.

yeah, then its probably back to what tweety mentioned...a valve burning open one of the first things to occur when the head over heats...

Well, I confirmed 2 valve seals going bad.... I'm honestly surprised it ran at all with the problems it had...mind you, there was no oil smell, smoke burning... (scratch)

This is in the order we found stuff.


1. once it was on the stand - turned upside down and removed the oil pan and that plate...Holy SHEET it smelled like no other engine I've smelled before.
2. Rings are worn to hell and back - it was allowing blow-by like no bodies business. Every piston was bad.
3. Rod bearings is where my noise was coming from. For whatever reason, they were the first to take a hit from low oil even with no oil light.... (I would have laid money on main bearings first).
4.Valve seal on 2 cylinders (#2 and #3
5. Intake manifold - found why I was getting a code a few weeks back.. The last butterfly valve before the head was sticking randomly. And secondly the other butterfly valve was stuck completely and had been for a while because there was gummed up gasoline laying in the manifold.
6. manifold is 2 pieces and the gasket between the 2 pieces was leaking...

Should get the block, head, and internals back this week from Deryld's shop.

Other things along the way that are being replaced.
---Transmission oil and filter
---transaxle seals
---front bearings (left front had grit) *** by the way, there IS supposed to be a seal from factory on these. We had to use a 20 Ton press to get the bearings and hub apart because the shaft was so corroded to the bearing.
---control arms
---tie rods
---3 motor mounts
---various vacuum hoses
---gaskets (manifold, header, exhaust)
---timing belt cover -- original and cracked so I'm just going to replace it.
--- engine rebuild kit - probably just .002 oversized (according to deryld but not set in stone)
---Alternator is being rebuilt because it's a BI*** to get to.

I'm hovering right at 1500$ or so...but I should have basically a new car mechanically.

 

[Installshield 2]

ha yeah, when the engine is in...alternator changes suck...

Good work on the engine man, glad you found the problems...sorry they're were a lot, but at least they'll be gone now haha.

Have you done the control arm work yet? I just replaced one two weeks ago. Its not hard at all, but the service manual is very vague about a few things. The rear chassis point of the control arms needs to be installed in a specific order (the back bushing that is perpendicular to the ground, unlike the front bushing)...I was working alone, so that may of been why i had some trouble...but remove the through bolt FIRST, BEFORE removing the 3 or 4 chassis bolts that hold that small support bracket. With the car lifted, and the control arm hanging, its loading up that rear bushing...I did the opposite, and completely destroyed that through bolt, but didn't see exactly why it was so hard to remove (the bushing was twisting as i loosened that bolt)...If you have the knuckles off and everything it won't be a problem though.

for installation, feed the through bolt through the bracket into the bushing as best you can (but it won't line up with the sub-frame hole yet), then start to torque the bracket down on all its mounting positions...use a bottle jack or something to support the ball joint end of the arm as well as to lift it...slowly work everything, and gently tap the bolt head with a hammer towards the wheel well...eventually the pressure on the bushing from the bracket will sort of 'pop' it into place, and line up the threading perfectly to finally torque the through bolt in.

It'll be much easier if you do this before reisntalling the knuckle on the strut and stuff...but just in case the work goes in a different order. Take care of all those bolts though, i paid nearly $50 at the dealership to replace all that hardware (it was badly corroded)...but i'm pretty sure the through bolt would've lived if i removed it first rather than getting it out with the bushing twisting heavily on it.

and what do you mean by bearing seals for the wheel bearings? That is on my list for this winter too. I've never inspected mine, but most bearing replacements from various online stores don't say anything about including a seal?

 

[sparkstyl]

Ill be getting mine back from the shop on Wednesday. I had them do a leak down test and cylinders 1,2,4 had 10% and #3 had 15%. Was thinking about doing a valve job until I got the quote of $2500... Needless to say I just had them do a valve adjustment to try to make the valve tick stop. On Thursday Im going to drive it for 100 miles or so and see how much oil im burning. You only see smoke when cold but nothing when hot. If it is still burning oil im taking the head off and see what needs to be done. Im thinking just the valve seals.

 

[ccrunner2011]

Ill be getting mine back from the shop on Wednesday. I had them do a leak down test and cylinders 1,2,4 had 10% and #3 had 15%. Was thinking about doing a valve job until I got the quote of $2500... Needless to say I just had them do a valve adjustment to try to make the valve tick stop. On Thursday Im going to drive it for 100 miles or so and see how much oil im burning. You only see smoke when cold but nothing when hot. If it is still burning oil im taking the head off and see what needs to be done. Im thinking just the valve seals.

Were doing a full rebuild from bottom to top..thankfully we have a full shop and have quite a bit experience rebuilding engines. The guy that's doing all the machine work is also locating all of the gaskets rods rings pistons crank seals etc
..which is pretty nice considering he is giving to them at cost instead of markup

 

[Installshield 2]

Ill be getting mine back from the shop on Wednesday. I had them do a leak down test and cylinders 1,2,4 had 10% and #3 had 15%. Was thinking about doing a valve job until I got the quote of $2500... Needless to say I just had them do a valve adjustment to try to make the valve tick stop. On Thursday Im going to drive it for 100 miles or so and see how much oil im burning. You only see smoke when cold but nothing when hot. If it is still burning oil im taking the head off and see what needs to be done. Im thinking just the valve seals.

woah $2500 for just the head work? or for the entire re-build? Total rip off if it was just the head, the dealership price for a crate FS-DE with fully assembled head and bottom end...installed...is like $3000 iirc...and a few retailers sell the long block for $2500 new (not rebuilt, new factory replacement). I've never checked, but i'd imagine you could get a new head for less than half of that.

EDIT: nevermind, seems most rebuilt replacements are close to $2k, my dealership was quoting around $4k for a brand new crate engine after shipping. The $2500 replacement i saw online was a reman to stock spec, so technically not new...

still though, if its just head work that is a ridiculous price imo.
.

 

[ccrunner2011]

woah $2500 for just the head work? or for the entire re-build? Total rip off if it was just the head, the dealership price for a crate FS-DE with fully assembled head and bottom end...installed...is like $3000 iirc...and a few retailers sell the long block for $2500 new (not rebuilt, new factory replacement). I've never checked, but i'd imagine you could get a new head for less than half of that.

EDIT: nevermind, seems most rebuilt replacements are close to $2k, my dealership was quoting around $4k for a brand new crate engine after shipping. The $2500 replacement i saw online was a reman to stock spec, so technically not new...

still though, if its just head work that is a ridiculous price imo.
.

ha... then you pay labor if you don't know what your doing.

If I was in a rush or didn't have the options I would have just parted it out or traded it in...thankfully my household has 7 cars for 3 people one of my favorite is the '91 miata.

Car will have to wait till after thanksgiving... It's Turkey time.

 

[sparkstyl]

woah $2500 for just the head work? or for the entire re-build? Total rip off if it was just the head, the dealership price for a crate FS-DE with fully assembled head and bottom end...installed...is like $3000 iirc...and a few retailers sell the long block for $2500 new (not rebuilt, new factory replacement). I've never checked, but i'd imagine you could get a new head for less than half of that.

EDIT: nevermind, seems most rebuilt replacements are close to $2k, my dealership was quoting around $4k for a brand new crate engine after shipping. The $2500 replacement i saw online was a reman to stock spec, so technically not new...

still though, if its just head work that is a ridiculous price imo.
.

Not an engine rebuild just a valve job. When the guy told me that i said and i quote "you have got to be ******* kidding me!"

Ill yet you know what ends up happening by this weekend. Like I said in my last post going to drive it to see how much its burning, and if its burning switch to 10w-30 oil, repeat the drive and go from there. I have limited funds as of right now but when I'm done with commercial diving school and have a job this car will be sick.