N/A Discussion

[Familia323]

I have become very interested in building up my engine without boost, but dont know whether or not it would be worth it in the end through money/hp gain. And lately I've been noticing more and more people talk about how they are interested in doing N/A(normally aspirated) build ups too. This is no doubt brought on by all the recent advancements with Piggybacks and fuel management. I wanted to start a thread where everyone could discuss whether or not our cars can be built up to decent HP levels without boost and the possible gains we could expect. So, to start it off:

What advantages will we gain with proper fuel management?

What could we do to increase hp if we had better control over the fuel maps?

What kind of 1/4mile times are people with headers,exhausts, intakes, etc. running?

 

[Darin]

No. It's not financially sound to try a N/A Build up on a low rpm, small displacement motor. Figure 11.5:1 CR pistons, forged rods, thousands and thousands of dollars in porting and polishing...Cam work so extreme the car would barely idle. You'd need to have the engine set up to rev to 8,000-10,000 rpms. :-/

All that for probably LESS HP, by a substantial margin, than the same money, or even LESS money into boosting the motor.

 

[tonkabui]

ok, so here's the costs so far:

intake: $200
header: $350
exhaust: $400
high flow cat: $350
intake/exhaust cams: $400

$1700 for about 125-130whp.

then with fuel management/ecu mods, you're looking at another ~$500.

that's $2200 all before install and tuning.

turbo will run you about $3500 for about 170whp.

so:

for NA: $16.92/hp
for turbo: $20.59/hp

but with turbo, hiboost has hit 200+ whp for about $5K.
with N/A, you're basically limited to about 130-150whp i think unless you want to go all out and make 220whp like the speedvision proteges, but their engines cost $15K.

hope i didn't spread any wrong info.

 

[Darin]

ok, so here's the costs so far:

intake: $200
header: $350
exhaust: $400
high flow cat: $350
intake/exhaust cams: $400

$1700 for about 125-130whp.

then with fuel management/ecu mods, you're looking at another ~$500.

that's $2200 all before install and tuning.

turbo will run you about $3500 for about 170whp.

so:

for NA: $16.92/hp
for turbo: $20.59/hp

but with turbo, hiboost has hit 200+ whp for about $5K.
with N/A, you're basically limited to about 130-150whp i think unless you want to go all out and make 220whp like the speedvision proteges, but their engines cost $15K.

hope i didn't spread any wrong info.

I'd think labor charges alone, on replacing the stock bits would run $2000... :-/

Figure, if you wanted 170whp - $3500 for a turbo, or $5-7000 for N/A mods - and the car would lose 'drivability'

 

[Matthew]

(normally aspirated)

naturally aspirated...

in any case, im going the N/A route for two main reasons, and some other small ones ill get into im sure once this discussion commences. Although i totally agree the turbo is a sweet way to go, i look at it like this:

1) more of a pain in the ass, especially if you do it yourself (problems, blown motors, hesitation, fuel mapping, colder plugs, guages, gas mileage, higher octane fuel which is 25 cents more expensive here per gallon, etc etc)

2) its easier to say, hey s*** lemme take my tax refund and buy some camshafts than it is to say, s*** i have an extra 3k dollars lying around that my wife doesnt know about to buy a turbo, and hope i dont **** anything up to my only car that i need to go to work.


thats just my take....i wish i had the money and the inclination to **** with a turbo, but its just not worth it....besides, you put all that money at one time into a turbo and you know what? theres always going to be someone faster than you...ALWAYS...

As far as track times, ill let you know how i do on thursday

 

[tonkabui]

this si true. i'm keeping my car NA also. it's easier to build it up slowly. i can never seem to save $4000 to blow on a turbo. i can sure save up a few hundred here and there to get downpipes, shorty headers, stuff like that though.

that and telling the gf that i'm spending $4K on a turbo instead of on her ring is bad news.

 

[Darin]

I can relate my Turbo Miata experience to this -

For about 5 months I had a GReddy turbo system on my Miata. It's not that the car 'broke', but 'things happened'. It's a domino effect. First the turbo - but now you are running lean, so you'll need new injectors. But now your pump can't keep up, so a fuel pump. Uh oh, the rear end could go at any minute!

There is something awesome about getting to my car and KNOWING that it will start EVERY Time...Sure, it's slower in a straight line, but like my Probe GT has become, having a car you have to monitor all the time, for fear of something breaking, etc, takes ALL the driving pleasure out of it.

Having said that, to get equal power from your car, staying N/A is the MUCH more expensive route. If you just want a nice bump, go with i/h/e...and a driving school.

 

[tonkabui]

werd... i want to learn how to drive fast. self teaching just is gonna get me killed one of these days. anyone want to teach me how to drive? i'm a fast learner. i was even in GATE.

 

[Matthew]

having a car you have to monitor all the time, for fear of something breaking, etc, takes ALL the driving pleasure out of it.

you just described my RX7 Turbo II, and it was STOCK. id never like to be there again

 

[1FASTMP5]

ok, so here's the costs so far:

intake: $200
header: $350
exhaust: $400
high flow cat: $350
intake/exhaust cams: $400

$1700 for about 125-130whp.

then with fuel management/ecu mods, you're looking at another ~$500.

that's $2200 all before install and tuning.

turbo will run you about $3500 for about 170whp.

so:

for NA: $16.92/hp
for turbo: $20.59/hp

but with turbo, hiboost has hit 200+ whp for about $5K.
with N/A, you're basically limited to about 130-150whp i think unless you want to go all out and make 220whp like the speedvision proteges, but their engines cost $15K.

hope i didn't spread any wrong info.

i think your forgetting that a turbo kit that runs you $3500 will need tuning also...dyno time isnt cheep $200. thats if you dont want a blown motor. also you will have to buy a new clutch and flywheel $600-800 because your stock one cant handle it.
also once your tuned you'll need guage's to make sure your runinng good. another $250 or so (you could spend alot more on gauges,it all depend on how crazy you want to get).
so really a kit that runs you $3500 will in the end cost you about $5000.

 

[Matthew]

yep, ASSUMING you dont screw anything up on the install...no one is perfect..my friend is a mechanic and is really good (normally), but he installed his own turbo on his civic, and because two hoses werent marked, got them confused somehow and measured the wrong one...so he drilled a hole wrong in his oil pan and had to get a new oil pan...it was either that or have someone fix it for like 50 bucks...and really, when it boils down to it, your car still isnt super fast...my friends stock 03 accord has 240 horses

 

[tonkabui]

thanks 1fast,

but i was just talking about cost of material. as you can see, the cost of install and tuning was not included in either. the benefits of turbo are there, but the drawbacks are also there.

same can be said for NA. tuning an NA motor for maximum output will deplete engine life as can be seen in any of the speedvision mazda's that have to get a new engine every few races. it's a tad less expensive for components, but way more expensive to tune and maximize.

the argument can go on for days. it's just to me, it's easier to go the NA route because it's easier to do bolt ons and such.

 

[Familia323]

the argument can go on for days. it's just to me, it's easier to go the NA route because it's easier to do bolt ons and such.

Yeah which is why I brought it up, because I can really only afford to do N/A but I wanted to just see what everyone thought and get the facts straight. And to see how slow my car is gonna be in the end hehe But is there anyway that we can get 200 WHP out of Naturally(thanks razor) Aspirated stuff? If I could get to that point id be happy as hell!

 

[Matthew]

well there is a lotta s*** you could actually do, without going too crazy...200whp, i doubt without nitrous, but maybe 200 hp at the crank with some dedication...so far this is my list:

intake
headers
no cats
exhaust
cams
pulleys
pistons
intake manifold
port/polish
flywheel
clutch
lsd
wires
plugs
and a good tailwind

and i know some of that stuff doesnt actually gain hp darin, but as far as getting as good times as a 200hp vehicle

 

[Familia323]

who makes pulleys for our cars and what are they actually gonna do?


and Razor how does your car feel with the stuff that you've done?

 

[Matthew]

well indigo makes water and alt pump pulleys around 215 shipped and unorthodox makes crank pulley for 215 shipped

the car feels pretty good, but then i used to drive a bad as j-body sunfire...but i guess well find out on thursday when i take her to the track, if the b**** that owns the track would email me back with the address because its like 1 3/4 hr away

 

[1sty]

ok, so here's the costs so far:

intake: $200
header: $350
exhaust: $400
high flow cat: $350
intake/exhaust cams: $400

$1700 for about 125-130whp.

then with fuel management/ecu mods, you're looking at another ~$500.

that's $2200 all before install and tuning.

turbo will run you about $3500 for about 170whp.

so:

for NA: $16.92/hp
for turbo: $20.59/hp

but with turbo, hiboost has hit 200+ whp for about $5K.
with N/A, you're basically limited to about 130-150whp i think unless you want to go all out and make 220whp like the speedvision proteges, but their engines cost $15K.

hope i didn't spread any wrong info.

All that listed will yeild mostly just hp and little torque. 130 is optimistic and will be for a very small area of the power band.
The turbo can be had for under $2.5K and will run over 150 hp and even more torque. This will need damn near no tuning. The major need is a good ear and a steady hand to leave the damn thing alone.

The issues with turboing lowering relibility are teh same as those in going NA. Either way its a constant upgrade and worry. Atleast if you want to keep pushing it.

NA is prone to knock just as turboing is.

The moral of the story is if you want a problem free car then leave it the hell alone, otherwise the more you try the more problems you will cause, just the way it works. Take it from someone that has paid $400 this month for a monthly payment for a car that has been stuck on jack stands awaiting parts.

Darins right. Stay to intake and exhuast, I wouldn't even do headeres as they will throw CEL lights and you will never know if there is another problem until its too late.

 

[twilightprotege]

both na and turbo have their advantages and disadvantages. do what ever the hell you want. up to 200hp at the crank, go na. past that, go turbo. very generalised ofcourse, but that's purely money wise......if you can work on the engine yourself. if you cant, be prepaired to spend much much much more, but as a very very general rule of thumb, 100hp/L na is easily obtainable without huge costs, but above that you'll be spending thousands for an extra 1 or 2 hp.

my advice is to keep a figure like this in mind.....for every $100 i spend on the engine, i want 1hp increase. do what ever you're happy to do with this. if something is $200 and only gives you 1hp increase, dont get it....same goes for $50 for 1hp increase, GET IT NOW!!!!! hehehe at the moment my success barometer is $70 per 1 hp.

later

 

[Familia323]

Well here is my goal:
To hit 200 WHP with N/A.

Its my goal whether it be reasonable, logical, or possible.


And has anyone thought about sending their ECU off to JETCHIPS???? THey can reprogram ECUs to the mods that you have done to your car, and my friend sent one off for is non-vtec Teg and got it back within the week. And he paid only 200 bucks. I used to hear of them back when I owned my 67 firebird, but I didnt think much of it as I never really had an ecu.. hehe. But now, I'm starting to wonder if its better than waiting for all the piggybacks and crap.

 

[flat_black]

I'm looking foreward to picking up a piggy at some point, myself. That being said, a lot of people here have some good ideas and ideas of pricing. But having worked to make a fast N/A Volvo 740, there's one thing that everyone, turbo or otherwise, forgets; Weight. Weight is the primary killer of any cars performance. Personally, I'm not up for spending too much more on my car, after intake, exhaust, piggyback, then winter wheels and brake upgrades. I'll just save my cash up for a Rotus (Rotary Lotus 7-style car). 1200 lbs, with a 13BT Rotary engine pushing 240 or so horsepower. *nods*

For those who care at all:
http://members.aol.com/ROTUSROTUS/

Is the site where you can take a look at 'em.

Back on topic, though. You can remove carpeting, plastics, liners... If you get a standalone EMS and whatnot, you can strip out the factory wiring harness, remove A/C... Any crazy thing you want. =) But if you want comfort, I assume you aren't going the route for making the car REALLY fast. Just a thought.