Dynotronics working on electric supercharger

[Silentnoise713]

How does 50-70 WHP for ~$2200 sound (WITH TUNING and some extras) Electric supercharger! Price is just an estimate so dont get to worked up over it.
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123842594-question-for-you-folks

Sounds like they are expanding their product portfolio and being a Mazda tuner themselves, Im betting the quality of the product will be good, if not at least well supported. Im excited and would like to see final number and really consider this. Sounds like they are starting with the Mz2 due to pity (we can ride the pity bus too). Anyhow, no guarantee but this is exciting and new, to me Need extra batteries for a longer boost time and takes a 6:1 min recharge but this is INSTANT power. Would be cool if they can add a "Prius" mode too

We are toying with a new FI system here ( well ok we have been looking at them in many different form for the 2),and we think we might have found a good set up that will work quite well. Soooo, I want to see who would be interested.


5-8 lbs of boost, so safe for the stock bottom end
complete set up with tuning and extra sensors
true boost based fueling and control
simple fitment with hand tools
50-70 whp gain(depends on how I restrict the output)

And best of all...............PRICE!

I think we can co this for about 2200 with tuning, but don't hold me to it just yet, as the demand will set the final price

You guys have been asking, in fact begging for this,so lets see a show of hands who would be in?

we just inked a contract with the supplier for a first order of 100 units with staged delivery starting in 30 days from payment.

Now we have a bunch of development work to do to get them to fit the various platforms we work with( 3,6,5,2, mx5,etc), but because you guys have not received a whole lot of love from the aftermarket in the past( with the exception of us and Corksport), I intend to start with the 2 first.

So, to answer your question, in a round about way, I would look for a roll out for you guys in 30-90 days

 

[sac02]

The "electric supercharger" thing gets a bad connotation from the ebay crap that is nothing more than a computer fan shoved into an intake tube. But in theory the idea is sound (using power stored during non-peak times on-demand when needed). First you have to use a compressor that can actually move the amount of air that an internal combustion engine needs (hint: it's a LOT more than most people realize), and this kit appears to have a legit compressor.

The limitation then is the current battery technology, but there is a lot of focus on batteries (see: Tesla, and related interest in electric vehicles) which is improving rapidly. I haven't read that thread, though I did have some discussion with DT about the e-supercharger on a different forum, and it seems like it's well thought out.

Having not read the thread, do you know how much extra battery must you carry to have that 6:1 (recharge:discharge) ratio? I'd call it 16% duty cycle, but that's just me. I'm assuming whatever battery is added would be lead-acid as the default option, I wonder how much that duty cycle could be improved with a Lithium battery, since lithium batts can support much higher charge/discharge rates. I bet spending a $100 to have a local alternator place rewind the alternator for increased output would help as well.

For me, the low duty cycle would be difficult to deal with. It definitely wouldn't be up to the task of a track day, canyon carving would probably be too much unless you held back some (and what fun is that?), and even a long AX course may be at the upper end of its limits. But if your primary use was the occasional highway passing maneuver, or surprising a Honda Civic at a stoplight, it would be no problem.

The price/hp sounds about right, but the overall cost seems borderline-high for the 3/5/6 platform where one can utilize OEM parts from the mazdaspeed vehicles to keep the cost of a turbo kit low. For the mazda2 this would look very attractive, I would think. (Maybe that's why it is being pitched to them first?)

 

[tuanies]

OrangeVirus offered this a couple months ago.

 

[sac02]

Do you know if OV has done a customer installation yet? Sometimes OV seems to have good info, and sometimes he seems... flaky.

 

[tuanies]

He posts on the M3R facebook a lot. I believe there's at least two installs so far. Its essentially a more efficient NOS-type setup.

 

[Silentnoise713]

This is definitely not for everyone but I would be the right audience and the Mz5 is also an appropriate car (no one build a mz5 for championships). In any given driving scenario, how often is a car WOT? There’s some discussion about track use and DT claims the standard build should have enough charge for short tracks (3-4 mins). In the thread above, DT mention they can build a setup that can last 5-6 hrs (must be a battery + alternator upgrade). My question is, can I DIY battery upgrade and how difficult would it be to build an adapter to use one of the charging station that are popping up for electric cars . Fun drive to work, free quick charge, fun drive home. . Even on long drives, you end up cruising (charging) anyhow and you get passing power when needed. It is essentially mild/mid but endless NOS boost. One of the reason why I am interested is b/c DT does tuning which is included. I also like that this will take very little effort to install. For auto owners, the on switch could/should be tied to the manual mode. It will literal feel like a video game with a battery gauge showing how much boost you have left (not sure how I feel about that).


There was a past post here where a member DIY repaired and upgraded the OE alternator to output more amps (link to youtube, I think). I think it was Mazdadude?

 

[Silentnoise713]

This was posted in the DT thread.

Soccer moms/dads can pretend their little vans are F1 cars with the e-charger (push to pass)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfZL2e7-azs

 

[Silentnoise713]

Oh my, there is some serious potential with an e-charger (not to be confused with the ebay charger). Here's the FT86's club's kit, full with dynos. I fully expect DT's kit to be almost identical except DT also includes tuning, which explains the added cost difference. If this come through at, say <$2,000 GB, it would be fantastic option! It is so easy to install (hint: resell so it is not a total lost). Could this be the "next" trend like LED lights?
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39719


For battery, I've already shoved in a larger Group 34 battery (105min RC) into the stock location and from removing the front cowl, I notice there is a HUGE empty space (large enough to fit a gallon or more) on the driver side. This would be a PERFECT spot for a 2nd battery! Location also helps with weight distribution.

 

[tuanies]

I spoke to my friend Bob at Drift Office who posted the initial tuned FRS test - http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47020

Even after tuning, he mentioned its a novelty. You get power at WOT, but when its not being used, its worse than stock since there's a restriction on the throttle body.

I looked into it and after talking to him, I'll pass and just save for a proper turbo setup.

 

[Dynotronics1]

not even close to the same set up. OV was working with the phantom ESC, which is a good set up but very limited in terms of air volume. Our unit is/will be based on an esc that already has a proven track record, and is factory built

 

[OrangeVirus1]

not even close to the same set up. OV was working with the phantom ESC, which is a good set up but very limited in terms of air volume. Our unit is/will be based on an esc that already has a proven track record, and is factory built

I'm sure we would all love to see some techincal specs on this so called unit, including:
maximum airflow CFM
maximum compressor RPM and DC motor RPM
physical size
voltage / amperage draw
total usable boost "time" before recharge. not just a 6:1 rate (which is actually slower than the phantom) but total from 100% to 0%
Efficiency, with compressor map
Total positive pressure amount, in bar / psi
minimum and maximum voltage use range

How about some proof of concept?
Proof with Dyno results?
Any 3rd party Dyno results to ensure no "tampering" has happened?
Proof of longevity?
Proof of quality components?
3rd party non-biased testing?
How long has these units been tested before being brought to the market?
any PROOF of them being "track tested" legitimate, 3rd party non "dynotronics biased" proof?
Factory built? By whom?

Not trying to be a downer, but some proof is required, especially with your record...so to say. The phantom ESC was 3rd party tested for quite a few months before they were brought to the market, how do we know you're not pushing garbage to make a quick buck? Anyone who is curious as to what i'm talking about, I urge you to do a quick google search, or ask around Mazda3Revolution forums. Just want what's best for the community!

How does 50-70 WHP for ~$2200 sound (WITH TUNING and some extras) Electric supercharger! Price is just an estimate so don’t get to worked up over it.
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123842594-question-for-you-folks

Sounds like they are expanding their product portfolio and being a Mazda tuner themselves, I’m betting the quality of the product will be good, if not at least well supported. I’m excited and would like to see final number and really consider this. Sounds like they are starting with the Mz2 due to pity (we can ride the pity bus too). Anyhow, no guarantee but this is exciting and new, to me… Need extra batteries for a longer boost time and takes a 6:1 min recharge but this is INSTANT power. Would be cool if they can add a "Prius" mode too

I don't know if I would consider it "expanding their porfolio" as much as I would consider it ripping off others hard work and testing, literally.

I could post so many posts of Dynotronics saying on multiple occassions how electric supercharger / turbochargers are not something they would ever consider investing in, and it's a "neat concept" but supposedly not worth the time or investment and that you should "see a lot on ebay soon as they are junk". I urge you to watch what this guys posts on facebook, literally Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide.

Do you know if OV has done a customer installation yet? Sometimes OV seems to have good info, and sometimes he seems... flaky.

Curious as to how I'm "flaky"?

and yes, the units have been Installed on a 2.5L, Tuned by me 210WTQ / 176WHP, and a Skyactiv 2.0 tund by me, in progress right now.

 

[Silentnoise713]

@ Sac, reading a bit into the next gen M3 speculations (dual charger: e-charger first to eliminate lag and low rpm response, then traditional turbo(s) kick in to keep the oomph), maybe this can be a possible candidate on your next “to do” list!? I can imagine instant power can be quite silly/fun/entertaining. A a mid size e-charger + a large but laggy high output turbo combo might work well together.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/beltless-blower-electrifying-the-supercharger-tech-dept

And from here, you can look a bit into Controlled Power Technologies and what they have to offer.



Some responses from DT to OV’s questions in the Mz2 thread but let’s just keep it to relevant detail (or speculation until we have a final product) and keep the drama out.

… I said before, and maintain now, that the concept of the ESC is good, but that the unit that was being used on the MX5, and the BRZ was more than a bit over priced for what you got. And while it was, again, a great concept, the Phantom is a rather crude, very limited unit.

That said, there are some great uses for a properly designed hybrid drive compressor. We have been working with a manufacture of one such unit. So you see, it not even close the the same thing, as you imply. On the one hand we have a unit that was built using off the shelf parts, and on the other a unit designed from a clean sheet of paper. And while I salute Rob at Phantom for the work he did on this, I think even he will admit that its not something he invented, or even thought up. Its a good effort, but after testing several units on both the BRZ and the MX5, we saw several GLARING problems, and set out to see if we could solve them and make a better mouse trap. Turns out it was already on the market, and all we had to do was integrate it.

There are still some huge issues to overcome, from the simple question control to battery type and location. And frankly I am not sure that the market will bear the cost of the unit to the point we can make it profitable. And, while I know this upsets you, we are a "for profit" operation.

But just to make you happy, let me throw you a bone;

The motor is a high speed DC Brushless that can easily run to speeds of 100,000 RPM, or about twice what the little R/C motor phantom is using will do

Voltage is 24-48 Vdc, depending on what you want the current to be, and how long you wish the event to sustain. It should be noted that we are also toying with the idea of a 24 Vdc high efficiency alternator as an add on for the kit.

BTW;

the recharge rate has quite a bit to do with what type of regulator is used to chop up the 12 v to charge the load batteries, the type of batteries, etc, etc…

But, again, let me make it plain for you ; the big issue with the current Phantom ESC is the simple fact it is an on/off unit. So as you can probably understand, the high loads of full boost can happen at ANY RPM range.
This is a very bad idea, and one we are looking into with a load x throttle patch for the ROM.

We also have a working control system that will ramp the manifold pressure based on engine speed and load.

 

[OrangeVirus1]

@ Sac, reading a bit into the next gen M3 speculations (dual charger: e-charger first to eliminate lag and low rpm response, then traditional turbo(s) kick in to keep the oomph), maybe this can be a possible candidate on your next “to do” list!? I can imagine instant power can be quite silly/fun/entertaining. A a mid size e-charger + a large but laggy high output turbo combo might work well together.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/beltless-blower-electrifying-the-supercharger-tech-dept

And from here, you can look a bit into Controlled Power Technologies and what they have to offer.



Some responses from DT to OV’s questions in the Mz2 thread but let’s just keep it to relevant detail (or speculation until we have a final product) and keep the drama out.

this has nothing to do with drama, it has to do with the fact that he is trying to sell something that he boldly claimed is bad for cars, he even went as far as to explain why. It's not drama, and refusing to believe the truth doesn't make it drama.

 

[kaos42]

look what i found on Alibaba

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Mazd...ars-Umazo-intake-modification/1686402763.html

can anyone see if the specs and parts make sense on this one ? can it really force air into the engine and cause power gains ?

 

[Silentnoise713]

look what i found on Alibaba

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Mazd...ars-Umazo-intake-modification/1686402763.html

can anyone see if the specs and parts make sense on this one ? can it really force air into the engine and cause power gains ?

Those look like the ebay special hair "blow dryers". While it "may" induce more air for a slight gain, I would be doubtful it can create enough pressure to make it a worthwhile investment. There’s also the issue of it potentially being restrictive when not in boost or under low rpm driving scenarios. Bottom line, no spec sheets mean there’s something to hide…

Look at the difference in build quality technical specs of the Chinese one vs the CPT's. Note this particular Cobra e-charger is meant for commercial vehicle applications.
http://www.cpowert.com/assets/CPT COBRA_4pp_APR2014_4print (2)-1.pdf


The more I read and think about it, electric charging does seem like a legitimate option due to technology advancements. The end goal is the same: force induction. You use exhaust gas to drive a turbo and the engine’s main crank drives a supercharger; former suffers lag and the latter suffers higher parasitic loss. E-charging avoids both but its drawback is energy storage limitations unless you stock a crap load of batteries/weight (or if alternator or a generator can keep up with demand). I do wonder, is it possible to build up a regenerative braking or KERS like system? I look forwards to seeing more on DT’s kit b/c they are looking to make that one capable of variable boost parameters and not act like an on/off switch (which is more like a nitrous system). The other key piece to any kind of force induction is tuning which is DT’s bread and butter. I think this system would work nicely in a hybrid car like the Prius or Volt.