CX-5 vs CX-50 suspension

bluegrass

Banned
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SUV
And it is nowhere near ONLY an American thing. That's truly my issue with your statement. Like European buyers are smarter about it? Nah...
I never once claimed it was only an American thing, I was simply commenting on the trends I see in America. However, projecting a tough/outdoorsy/active image is certainly a popular theme among American consumers.

I've linked to several articles describing this phenomenon. Here's another...
https://jalopnik.com/mazda-is-entering-the-off-road-world-with-the-cx-50-and-1848060120
- I’m talking about looks here, because let’s be honest, that’s why people buy these vehicles anyway — it’s all about image. And this Mazda CX-50 looks incredible.
- Mazda has followed the same formula everyone else is using: throw some black plastic cladding, jack up the ground clearance a bit, throw some chunky tires on some aggressive looking black wheels, add silver trim that looks like a skid plate, and install some matte black graphics on the hood.


Because they ARE going for the market of people that by Jeeps and Subaru, for whatever reason they buy them. "Adventurous" plays into a lot of marketing and people buy them not to go off road... but to be able to go to Costco in 8 inches of snow. Smart play.
Aren't you describing the exact same point I have been making all along that you claimed was BS...that Mazda is appealing to consumers who want to project an "outdoorsy" image, even though they don't plan to go off-road? It seems you have come full circle.
 

sm1ke

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Sorry, Sm1ke. Maybe you could split this into it's own thread? :D

No need to apologize - it a worthwhile discussion, but if it continues for much longer I can split it into it's own thread for sure.


This Mazda 3-based vehicle, with those fake plastic "skid plates", sure doesn't seem like real off-road use was a key design criteria.

Yes, it shares a platform with the Mazda3. It's also got a higher ground clearance, standard AWD, an off-road drive mode, protective plastic cladding, and probably different tires (or all-terrain tires may be offered as an option or as part of a trim level). I know you don't like the fake skid plates, but that doesn't mean you can ignore the rest of the car.

I have no doubt many will drive through a grassy field when parking at the winery, or a short gravel drive to get to the pumpkin patch.
But I was referring to the remote, boulder-strewn pioneer wagon paths pictured in the promotion. I would be surprised if more than 5/100K drove in such areas.
Doing so would likely result is something similar to this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrUD4mSvZms

Referring to a vehicle as "off-road capable" doesn't automatically mean it can crawl boulders or navigate a heavily rutted road. There's the area between the pavement and the rocky, rutted areas that the CX-50 would be perfect for, and those are the areas that are shown in the promo photos and the areas you mentioned. I see the car on packed dirt roads/trails and the equivalent of a cobblestone path. I don't see any promotional materials of it climbing the bigger boulders that line the sides of the road, or anything like that.

It would be misleading if they showed the CX-50 like this:
jeep-wrangler-rubicon-hard-rock.png

But they don't, so I wouldn't immediately jump to that conclusion.
 
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RDX Aspec Adv.
Its one test, designed to find the limit of the tested car in one specific scenario.

If the absolute limit is a little lower, but the overall driving experience is improved, I'd call that a win. It actually makes sense that they would do this when you consider the direction Mazda went when they implemented the 2.5T and it's powerful low-end performance that falls flat at higher RPMs. For the vast majority of drivers, most, if not all of their time is spent at lower RPMs.

Market to the masses to line your pockets, then debut something fun when you have the funds to do it. IMO that's what Mazda's doing.
100%, but stop lying about it, was my point. Torsion beams aren't better. They're cheaper and simpler.
 

7eregrine

The man, the myth, the legend
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Land of Cleve
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2016.5 CX5
Aren't you describing the exact same point I have been making all along that you claimed was BS...that Mazda is appealing to consumers who want to project an "outdoorsy" image, even though they don't plan to go off-road? It seems you have come full circle.
Not exactly. My issue all along here has been two fold, your EXACT statement was:
"It shows how dim-witted the American public is."
This does not imply exactly what I said? I despise generalizations like this.
My 2nd issue is your comments that people are "projecting". Barely anyone is buying a vehicle to project an image to the world. "Oh, look, how adventurous I look!" Consumers are just not that dim witted. They buy it because THEY like the way it looks not because of some perceived notion of how it will MAKE them look.
I don't think this look is popular because = 'outdoorsy'. Showing these cars driving on outdoor terrain shows they are capable vehicles. Not ADVENTROUS.
It's marketing, it's not "dumb consumers that will never off road going to Costco buying a Wrangler to LOOK ADVENTROUS".
That's all. I think we are close enough on this now, we can move on. ;)
Marketing works. This we definitely know. It doesn't mean people are dim witted.
 

bluegrass

Banned
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SUV
My 2nd issue is your comments that people are "projecting". Barely anyone is buying a vehicle to project an image to the world. "Oh, look, how adventurous I look!" Consumers are just not that dim witted. They buy it because THEY like the way it looks not because of some perceived notion of how it will MAKE them look.
A person may want to reinforce a personal image to themselves...they may want to project a certain image to friends...use it to attract friends...attemplt to identify with a peer group...ect.
This is widely accepted consumer behavior, not something I'm making up.
I cited several third-party articles discussing this...
  • "Consumers who buy these vehicles love the 'what if' idea," he told ABC News. "That alone will get them to buy these vehicles. But few will make that leap from mall parking lot to off-roading adventuring." according to Karl Brauer, executive analyst at iSeeCars.com.
  • I’m talking about looks here, because let’s be honest, that’s why people buy these vehicles anyway — it’s all about image.
  • "Whether you want to admit it or not, sometimes the vehicle people choose to buy is based on the image that goes along with it. People just love the feeling of being able to go anywhere in any condition, even if they only take it to soccer practice and the shopping mall in reality."
I don't think this look is popular because = 'outdoorsy'. Showing these cars driving on outdoor terrain shows they are capable vehicles. Not ADVENTROUS.It's marketing, it's not "dumb consumers that will never off road going to Costco buying a Wrangler to LOOK ADVENTROUS".
You don't think manufacturers, marketers and consumers are going after an "outdoorsy" and "adventurous" image/look? The ad literally shows people putting on ROCK CLIMBING gear from the back of the CX-50! Mazda explicitly says this...
  • Mazda’s president and CEO describes the new crossover using the most predictable terms possible: “This new Mazda vehicle has been developed for North America, particularly to support the active and outdoor lifestyles of customers in this region.”
The most obvious proof that manufactures and consumers want an "active/outdoorsy" look (with no serious off-road intentions) are the fake skid plates. Why is "this look is popular", if not to "look adventurous"?
Imitating a real off-road feature is literally their only purpose. And the only reason to do so is to make it LOOK like it is more capable than it really is.
 
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2021 signature
Wow, everyone critiquing form over function.

Of course it's the look. Throughout our 20's - ahem, 60's we have all bought cars that where we want to project - either for others or even ourselves. 80's Camaros with sleek styling yet minimal performance, None of you have ever bought a car with fake hood scoops or air vents in front of the rear wheels, rally stripes, small trunk wings, lift kits, wide tires - and I'm not talking about aftermarket, I'm referring to manufacturer styling. And TBH, style/appearance accounts for a lot of what we look at when we're shopping. So I have no problems with manufacturers projecting a style in their cars
 

Kedis82ZE8

'12 GX 460,'07 G35x / '15 CX-5 AWD GT w/Tech Pkg
Contributor
I think the CX-50 will sell well myself... I see a lot of CX-5 off pavement here in the Pacific Northwest. I'd consider one myself but my existing CX-5 gets me where I need to be. As for image.. I replaced an old '96 Explorer AWD 5.0L about 5 years ago with a '12 GX 460 (same 150 series platform as 4R)... it nothing to do with image but needed something to get to my cabin in the winter. I needed something extremely capable with top notch reliability. It has far exceeded my expectations on those needs. It won't win any MPG contests but wins everything else for me.
 
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2018 AWD GT Premium Red/Black
100%, but stop lying about it, was my point. Torsion beams aren't better. They're cheaper and simpler.
Smaller, more reliable, and feels like people expect could be legitimate advantages, even if they perform objectively worse on the test track.

I'm not saying I know those to be actual advantages, but it's plausible.

I agree, though, don't blow smoke up our a**es if its for cost savings.

If they have a sophisticated computer model that controls drivetrain and suspension behavior real time, its also plausible that a mechanically simpler system, can be modeled more accurately and result in an overall better-engineered solution that maintains its effectiveness as components are used and age.
 

Freedom55

2020 AWD GS Montreal Canada
I had a 2014 Murano with independent rear suspension that behaved like it had a torsion beam rear axle (a well known issue, incorrectly called bump steer); this was corrected in 2015 3rd gen. I can confirm this because I bought a 2017 and gone was the problem.

In one of the CX-50 pics, I saw hood struts. This is not cost cutting but then again we don't know enough about the rest of the vehicle. In another post, I mentioned no more 40/20/40 seat back and no more carpeted side cargo panels. As with the current CX-5, will it have wiper deicers, 4 window auto up/auto down switches, height adjustable passenger seat, reclining back seat, acoustic windshield and front windows, etc? Also, will the glove box, console and door pockets hold more stuff? How about noise, comfort, handling? Can't wait for auto journalists to put it to a complete road test:) With new or updated models,manufacturers have a way to give more things on one hand but take some from the other...
 
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2022 CX-5 Turbo
In one article I read, CX-50 is positioned to be one notch higher than CX-5. It said, CX-50 could be priced at $3k higher than a CX5, comparable equipped. So, they better not be cutting corners with CX-50.
 

sm1ke

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In one article I read, CX-50 is positioned to be one notch higher than CX-5. It said, CX-50 could be priced at $3k higher than a CX5, comparable equipped. So, they better not be cutting corners with CX-50.

I think it may not be as cut and dry as some are making it out to be. As others have said, torsion beam is not as good as multi-link on paper, so it would appear that that particular corner has been cut. But, I've read a few reports in articles and a couple on this board, that the 4th gen Mazda3 handles very well, so if they cut this corner, but did the suspension tuning necessary to achieve that result, it minimizes the effect of the "cut".

On top of that, even if some corners were cut, there are some things that were added to make it more attractive - for example, the pano roof, which is a feature many have expressed a desire for in the past. That $3k increase over the CX-5 also includes the AWD premium.
 
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Ottawa, Ontario
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17 Mazda 6 GT
I think it may not be as cut and dry as some are making it out to be. As others have said, torsion beam is not as good as multi-link on paper, so it would appear that that particular corner has been cut. But, I've read a few reports in articles and a couple on this board, that the 4th gen Mazda3 handles very well, so if they cut this corner, but did the suspension tuning necessary to achieve that result, it minimizes the effect of the "cut".
At the end of the day, who but a few car guys like us on this forum will actually know, or research, that Mazda made a change in the rear suspension.
Ask any random person in the street if they know the difference between IRS and beam suspension, and 90% won't know what you are talking about.
The first question a typical buyer asks when walking into the showroom won't be "what kind of rear suspension does it have?"
Most people buy for looks, or by brand name, or both.
Be safe, carry on. Cheers.
 
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2022 CX-5 Turbo
At the end of the day, who but a few car guys like us on this forum will actually know, or research, that Mazda made a change in the rear suspension.
Ask any random person in the street if they know the difference between IRS and beam suspension, and 90% won't know what you are talking about.
The first question a typical buyer asks when walking into the showroom won't be "what kind of rear suspension does it have?"
Most people buy for looks, or by brand name, or both.
Be safe, carry on. Cheers.
I agree. In all CX-30/CX-50 news releases from Mazda, you won't read them mentioning rear suspension. It is clear that it is not something Mazda is proud of.... They made a choice. For tranquility, packing, whatever, over driving dynamics. Maybe IRS is not needed for off-roaders. Someone who are can chime in.
 

yrwei52

2016 Mazda CX-5 GT AWD w/Tech Pkg
Contributor
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Plano, Texas, USA
I agree. In all CX-30/CX-50 news releases from Mazda, you won't read them mentioning rear suspension. It is clear that it is not something Mazda is proud of....
Agreed.

I remember when Ford Mustang changed the real suspension from rigid axle to independent suspension, it’s a big deal, and it improved the performance and control a lot.
 
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2021 CX-9 Sig
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2021 CX-5 GT
I agree. In all CX-30/CX-50 news releases from Mazda, you won't read them mentioning rear suspension. It is clear that it is not something Mazda is proud of.... They made a choice. For tranquility, packing, whatever, over driving dynamics. Maybe IRS is not needed for off-roaders. Someone who are can chime in.

As someone who has a Mazda 3 with the independent suspension (2017 Mazda 3) and drives a newer Mazda 3 with the torsion beam (2021 Mazda 3 2.5T) at least three days a month, I will say the new car handles better than the old car in the majority of driving conditions. I assume it could be worse in certain situations but the new car is just so much better. It is quieter, feels more solid, is more forgiving and handles better. Is a torsion beam a "lesser" suspension system than an independent suspension system? You bet. Does it matter on these cars? In my experience, not a single bit.
 

sm1ke

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As someone who has a Mazda 3 with the independent suspension (2017 Mazda 3) and drives a newer Mazda 3 with the torsion beam (2021 Mazda 3 2.5T) at least three days a month, I will say the new car handles better than the old car in the majority of driving conditions. I assume it could be worse in certain situations but the new car is just so much better. It is quieter, feels more solid, is more forgiving and handles better. Is a torsion beam a "lesser" suspension system than an independent suspension system? You bet. Does it matter on these cars? In my experience, not a single bit.

This is the comparison we needed! Appreciate that info @dougal.
 

7eregrine

The man, the myth, the legend
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Land of Cleve
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2016.5 CX5
Wow, everyone critiquing form over function.

Of course it's the look. Throughout our 20's - ahem, 60's we have all bought cars that where we want to project - either for others or even ourselves.
I have never bought a car to ... project... anything. I buy cars because *I* like the way they look. Period.
I have never bought a car from my very first (1974 Pontiac Firebird) to my current Mazda because I wanted to .... project an image to me or anyone else. I bought that car for $1,000 even after my mom tried to talk me out of it by offering me HER car for free (Dodge Aries K) because it looked cool AF (even with its missing front bumper) and it was fast AF.
I guess maybe I am not AS shallow as I thought since I am not a ... projector. lol

I just believe there are way more people out there like me, then like you projecting guys. ;)
 
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2022 CX-5 Turbo
It is quieter, feels more solid, is more forgiving and handles better.
It is not fair to compare tranquility between your two vehicles. Newer Mazdas are quieter than older ones. I have three Mazdas. I know that when I drive them. Night and day difference if I compare my '17 CX5 vs. '14 Mazda3. '16 Mazda6 in between. Both IRS.

Handling. I think the difference shows at the limit. e.g. emergency avoidance situation.
Not day to day driving.