cheap power combination

[blue_hotty]

So I've seen various people add components to their cars and get moderate improvement. One guy got 5-6 WHP from a low flow muffler, others get 4-5 hp from a CAI...

So combine 5 for the muffler, 5 for the CAI, and maybe 5 for the lighter mazdaspeed clutch and flywheel combo, and the WHP goes from about 106 to 120. Seems like that'd take a 0-60 time from the low 8's to maybe mid 7's and wouldn't cost too much.

 

[sundevilMP5]

those power gains are usually typical...i would say that generally most people will get 4-5 whp for an exhaust...and 2-3whp for a CAI...a flywheel won't add power...just make it seem like it...but it will help acceleration...just not that much...

 

[dc5]

So I've seen various people add components to their cars and get moderate improvement. One guy got 5-6 WHP from a low flow muffler, others get 4-5 hp from a CAI...

So combine 5 for the muffler, 5 for the CAI, and maybe 5 for the lighter mazdaspeed clutch and flywheel combo, and the WHP goes from about 106 to 120. Seems like that'd take a 0-60 time from the low 8's to maybe mid 7's and wouldn't cost too much.

the problem with that is u can't really add hp like that. let say IF, if you do get 5-6 whp from the muffler, and IF you do get the 4-5 ponies from the intake. ur gain from the intake after u install the muffler will not be as great as the intake alone. and vice versa. ur combined hp from those two will probably be around 7-8 whp.. and not the 11 that u get from the 5 and 6. and the flywheel will just make ur car quicker. because the lighter the flywheel u have to spin, the quickly the car will respond.

 

[blynzoo]

Re: Re: cheap power combination

the problem with that is u can't really add hp like that. let say IF, if you do get 5-6 whp from the muffler, and IF you do get the 4-5 ponies from the intake. ur gain from the intake after u install the muffler will not be as great as the intake alone. and vice versa. ur combined hp from those two will probably be around 7-8 whp.. and not the 11 that u get from the 5 and 6. and the flywheel will just make ur car quicker. because the lighter the flywheel u have to spin, the quickly the car will respond.

AAACK!!!!! Thank you dc5!!!!! People dont understand that this is not addition. You can't just "add" the HP numbers together. Folks, search "horsepower gains" in dogpile.com and you'll get some articles from universities exlpaining it for you.
And dont feel bad y'all. I've seen people who know everything about everything about a car "add." One of my ex-drivers (drivers know nothing!) took a list of all the improvements to his jaguar roadster and started adding them. Jeez.

 

[blynzoo]

Blue hotty, I'm sooooooo happy to hear interest in speed.(laugh)

If you want to spend about 1K, get:
CAI
hi-flow exhaust
racing flywheel/clutch

CAIs are all similar, as are exhausts (in performance at least). RR racing
http://www.rr-racing.com makes a good flywheel/clutch combo.

If you really want to go fast, dont buy sh*t now and wait for a turbo (3-4K).
Oh, and about flywheel/clutches. While they dont actually increase horsepower, they do "increase horsepower."

....riiiiight..........

There's a lot of slush in the gearbox that makes it easier to drive, and makes the car idle steadily. replacing the stock components stiffens everything up and gets more power more quickly from the motor to the rubber. so while you're not getting more horsepower, you are getting more horsepower to the wheels.

I just read that, and even I dont know if it makes sense.

 

[dc5]

If you really want to go fast, dont buy sh*t now and wait for a turbo (3-4K).

exactly. believe it or not. the turbo is really one of the cheapest way for "go". think about it. with the compression of 9.1:1 on the FS-DE , u can "safely" push 10 psi of boost without rebuilding the internal. that's like 50 hp already, u can argue the exact hp number here..but depends on the set up, i think 50 is a good estimate. and that is only for 3000~4000 bucks + tuning, suppose u can gonna install the bolt-on urself. so we that is less than 100 bucks per horse that u are gaining.. and ur options are unlimited varying the boost level after u upgrade ur internals.. that money is alot better spent then the 500~600 bucks that u are spending now on the exhaust that really isn't gonna do you jack..and if you go the N/A route, after putting in the header, intake, exhaust, cams, piston, valves springs, gasket, stronger block, plus all that other messy stuff that i wouldnt' wanan mess with, you are gaining 50 ponies while u just spent over 4G...and that's about all u can do with the N/A engine.... the turbo is definitely one of the best "bang for the buck" mod... the best one i would have to say is a ECU upgrade.

 

[CharlieP5]

exactly. believe it or not. the turbo is really one of the cheapest way for "go". think about it. with the compression of 9.1:1 on the FS-DE , u can "safely" push 10 psi of boost without rebuilding the internal. that's like 50 hp already, u can argue the exact hp number here..but depends on the set up, i think 50 is a good estimate. and that is only for 3000~4000 bucks + tuning, suppose u can gonna install the bolt-on urself. so we that is less than 100 bucks per horse that u are gaining.. and ur options are unlimited varying the boost level after u upgrade ur internals.. that money is alot better spent then the 500~600 bucks that u are spending now on the exhaust that really isn't gonna do you jack..and if you go the N/A route, after putting in the header, intake, exhaust, cams, piston, valves springs, gasket, stronger block, plus all that other messy stuff that i wouldnt' wanan mess with, you are gaining 50 ponies while u just spent over 4G...and that's about all u can do with the N/A engine.... the turbo is definitely one of the best "bang for the buck" mod... the best one i would have to say is a ECU upgrade.

You guys saying you can't build a fast NA P5/MP3?
With $4000 Bucks I'll get you to the 14's with no problem. I say 14's because that's what the Turbo guys are running in the 1/4 mile. It's all about taste and what your willing to spend on your project (Notice I said Project not Mods). The most important part of building an engine is planning before you start. I've built alot of NA engines and the owners are proud of their car because they can hang with turbo and nitros setups.

My recommendation to Blue hotty is figure out what you want before you spend a dollar. No matter what route you choose to take Turbo,Nos, or NA. If you want to Go Turbo think about the Spoolin Turbo starter kit for $1600, If you want to go NOS you can go with a 55 shot from a Zex kit that will cost you $500, If you want to go NA you should Think about a Header,High Compression Pistons, Camshafts and Cam Gears, and leave the Bolt-ons for last.
(redp5)CharlieP5

 

[blynzoo]

you're both right....
you can get fast NA and fast FI.....the key is planning, as Chuck said.
I have some "quickie" mods on mine because im impatient. The best way to go is either save for the turbo, or go the fast NA route
(cams, cam gears, pistons, headers, manifolds, rods, port and polish, etc)

 

[dc5]

You guys saying you can't build a fast NA P5/MP3?
With $4000 Bucks I'll get you to the 14's with no problem. I say 14's because that's what the Turbo guys are running in the 1/4 mile. It's all about taste and what your willing to spend on your project (Notice I said Project not Mods). The most important part of building an engine is planning before you start. I've built alot of NA engines and the owners are proud of their car because they can hang with turbo and nitros setups.

My recommendation to Blue hotty is figure out what you want before you spend a dollar. No matter what route you choose to take Turbo,Nos, or NA. If you want to Go Turbo think about the Spoolin Turbo starter kit for $1600, If you want to go NOS you can go with a 55 shot from a Zex kit that will cost you $500, If you want to go NA you should Think about a Header,High Compression Pistons, Camshafts and Cam Gears, and leave the Bolt-ons for last.
(redp5)CharlieP5

I agree with you. It's alot about personal taste. and you COULD go fast with N/A. and planning is definitely good, unless u have alot of money to blow. But for me, i would choose turbo over nitrious or all motor because 14s isn't exactly fast. alot of cars out there are already running 14's stock. of course compare to stock the stock mp3/p5.. that's already a bat out of hell. but once you constantly hit 14's, the 14's just won't cut it for you and even if you gut out ur interior and get cf everything, the best u can do is shave a half a sec or something. but your options are just alot more when u go with the turbo. that's just my opinion. i am sure the N/A guys will disagree with me on this. but again. no flame intended.

 

[dc5]

actually, i am quite curious as to how fast, fastest, can you get with N/A on this motor?

 

[CharlieP5]

actually, i am quite curious as to how fast, fastest, can you get with N/A on this motor?

Well, First of all we have to throw away the stock cpu (and flow meter) and replace it with an engine management system like haltec or e-manage from greddy if we want to see some real Horsepower Gains.
Then get some custom made Pistons from 11.5:1 - 12.5:1 Compression Ratio (0.25 Oversize ofcourse).
Third, get some custom grind Camshafts with real lift and duration (not like the J-spec,mazdaspeed cams) Cam Gears and springs are a must!
With that done we could then get some oversized valves with a nice 5 angle job done.
Fourth, Replace the stock exhaust manifold with a Racing header like the one AWR Racing sells.
Fifth, Custom built Catback with a performance muffler like an HKS
Sixth, Cold Air Intake System with some oversize work on the throttle body and some Port & Polish work on the intake Manifold.
and so on...

I'm pretty sure this will get you some 60+ Horsepower gains. After that then you'll have to go with supension,transmission (Final Drive and Flywheel/Clutch Combo), and differential Upgrades (Limited Slip).

I do agree with you on your previous post. That's where planning comes in. If your target is high 12's in the 1/4 mile then you won't even think of going NA.
(redp5)

 

[dc5]

man..all that custom engine work...that's gonna cost ya... is the greddy e-management a piggyback? or is that a programmable ecu?? so basically with that ur can advance the timing and tweak the fuel map right? would u need to reinforce the block after replacing with high compression pistons??

 

[chdesign]

The Greddy E-Manage is a piggyback that you can tune fuel and ignition curves similar to the LINK system BEGI uses on all their Miata turbo kits...well not all but most. The E-Manage uses itself for just fuel but if you want to get into ignition curves you have to have a laptop. A NA engine is no easy task trust me I know but once you have it done its great to see the look on peoples faces when your little NA protege kicks their ass. and if you want more power Nitrous is always an option down the road. Once I finish my setup with the E-Manage I'm going to spray a WET shot onto mine of about 40 hp nothing big but a nice bump on top when i need it. Dry is ok up to about 50 hp but i have used both dry and wet and once you go wet you won't ever do another dry kit. As far as turbo goes yeah it makes power but the old says comes up again speed cost money...how fast do you want to go?

 

[big_ben]

think about it. with the compression of 9.1:1 on the FS-DE , u can "safely" push 10 psi of boost without rebuilding the internal. that's like 50 hp already

You are a little off there. You can push 5psi non-intercooled and get about 50 to 60hp and it will only cost you around $1800 to $2000. No if you build your setup like spoolin's or mine or stou's, you are going to get an extra 100 ponies. I think stou is around 190 to 200 if he were to use 10psi, and I know I can break 200 if I push 10psi, which I will do for the dyno.

 

[big_ben]

think about it. with the compression of 9.1:1 on the FS-DE , u can "safely" push 10 psi of boost without rebuilding the internal. that's like 50 hp already

You are a little off there. You can push 5psi non-intercooled and get about 50 to 60hp and it will only cost you around $1800 to $2000. No if you build your setup like spoolin's or mine or stou's, you are going to get an extra 100 ponies. I think stou is around 190 to 200 if he were to use 10psi, and I know I can break 200 if I push 10psi, which I will do for the dyno. But mine is at the $3000 mark.

 

[dc5]

No if you build your setup like spoolin's or mine or stou's, you are going to get an extra 100 ponies. I think stou is around 190 to 200 if he were to use 10psi

ok now are u talking about to the crank or to the wheel?

but you are right...for 10psi u should get another 100 hp to the crank.

but anyways. what 1/4 mile time are u running with that setup of urs?

 

[big_ben]

I'm talking about at the wheels. The stock MP3 has about 109 at the wheels, at 10 to 12 psi you will get about 190 to 210 at the wheels. At 5psi you should get around 160 at the wheels.

 

[spoolinmp3]

7.5psi will give you 190whp vs the stock 109whp........thats abot 80 more whp which translates to about 94 crank horsepower. Thats gonna be real hard to do with N/A. Not knocking N/A here just stating the facts.

Plus if you go with a nice 10psi you should be at the 210 whp mark and thats 100 more whp or almost 120 crank horsepower

 

[dc5]

7.5psi will give you 190whp vs the stock 109whp........thats abot 80 more whp which translates to about 94 crank horsepower. Thats gonna be real hard to do with N/A. Not knocking N/A here just stating the facts.

Plus if you go with a nice 10psi you should be at the 210 whp mark and thats 100 more whp or almost 120 crank horsepower

sweet.... so are u running 7.5 or 10psi?? what kinda time are u running with that?

 

[CharlieP5]

7.5psi will give you 190whp vs the stock 109whp........thats abot 80 more whp which translates to about 94 crank horsepower. Thats gonna be real hard to do with N/A. Not knocking N/A here just stating the facts.

Plus if you go with a nice 10psi you should be at the 210 whp mark and thats 100 more whp or almost 120 crank horsepower

Well I Don't Think so. If you check out the new Sport Compact Car Magazine you will see an ad on Roger Foos' Protege5. They have done the same modifications I mentioned earlier (Higher Compression, Engine Management, Custom Cams, Racing header) and you will see they are pushing 225whp on a normally aspirated engine. Now do the math that is 125 crank horsepower added on a non-turbo car.(omg)
So you see everything can be done if you have the money to do it. Is it expensive? Let's see:
Custom Pistons $520
Custom Rods $650
Custom Cams $625
Larger Valves $250
Total: $2,045.00

No Job Is Difficult If You Have The Right Tools

I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything like it. I'm just saying that you can be as fast as you want either way you go NA, Turbo, or NOS. Which is better? well that all dpends on what you like. To say that you cannot extract the same power from a turbo Protege from a NA one is not really true. It all depends on how far you want to take it.....Peace!