It looks like I will be able to do one of these mods in the near future. Originally I had wanted to get the intake cam but then i realized that i could install the HC pistons for fairly cheap. Initially i thought that i could get the 10.7:1 pistons for under $200 but it appears that they have gone up in price. So I can either do the 10.4:1 for like $600 total or the intake cam for $400+. But there are some concerns. First is the gain from the 10.4 pistons worth $200 more. i figured 13-15 hp gain for the HC set. The intake cam numbers are in the 12hp range but are they emissions legal. ALso how do they apply to the power band? I thought the hc pistons were nice in the low end and additions throughout the band while the cam was more mid-high. Any suggestions? If i do the cams though i can afford somethin else...redline or royal purple ATF flush..etc..
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camshafts or HC pistons?
- Thread starter akhilleus
- Start date
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
you'll get more power from hc pistons. you cant go too big cams with the stock 9.1:1 pistons - you'll just have 0 power until 5000rpm if you go too big.
if you get hc pistons first then do the cams later you'll have fun now and more fun later. if you do it the other way around you'll be peeved off now, then a lot of fun later
if you get hc pistons first then do the cams later you'll have fun now and more fun later. if you do it the other way around you'll be peeved off now, then a lot of fun later
mazdamp3_18
Member
- :
- 06 gti, 06 evo IX
i say save up and do everything at once... hc pistons, cams, and stand alone....
my friend has a neon and put on a header intake cam gears and stand alone and he beat a stock wrx in a race on the highway
but he is all knowing about cars especially neons. he owns a tuning company called tti racing....
my friend has a neon and put on a header intake cam gears and stand alone and he beat a stock wrx in a race on the highway
but he is all knowing about cars especially neons. he owns a tuning company called tti racing....
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
if you were to go pistons you'd need new piston rings....but then again the new pistons might come with them...but that's about it
- :
- 2002 BJFW, 2007 BK3P, 1979 SA22C, 2005 BK3P
corksport is working on thier own cams for the protege engine just an fyi...
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
You can't install JUST HC pistons...the only fun you will have will be involved with detonation...the stock ECU can handle a bump in compression from 9.2:1 to about 9.7:1 with a switch to higher octane fuel...any compression ratio's higher than that absolutely require the use of some sort of accurate engine controller capable of handling both fuel math/mapping and timing...so with either the J-spec ZE piston set, or the HC MSP piston set you have to get a standalone of some sort...AEM's plug and play EMS (the coolest ECU in the world, plugs right into the facotory harness with no wiring for the most part) is now available for Miata's and we can only hope one becomes available for the FS...probably not, but hopefully....but you have to get some sort of programmable engine controller to handle that much of a compression increase...if you don't your engine will sound worse than a Backstreet Boys concert, and probably melt...
also the gains of going from 9.2:1 to around 10.5:1 will be over 35whp with proper tuning...when accompnained with proper cams...
also the gains of going from 9.2:1 to around 10.5:1 will be over 35whp with proper tuning...when accompnained with proper cams...
mazdamp3_18
Member
- :
- 06 gti, 06 evo IX
installshield is very correct....
when you raise/ lower compression your engine turns into a different animal... you need fuel management to run better than stock....
i would almost garontee that you will gain only 2-5 hp if you put the pistons in without any management....
i say start with the basics and work your way up to the pistons... which is what im going to do....
im working my my friend to make a stand alone for our cars ... it will probably cost about $1100.. and it has many cool features....
dont do the pistons....
when you raise/ lower compression your engine turns into a different animal... you need fuel management to run better than stock....
i would almost garontee that you will gain only 2-5 hp if you put the pistons in without any management....
i say start with the basics and work your way up to the pistons... which is what im going to do....
im working my my friend to make a stand alone for our cars ... it will probably cost about $1100.. and it has many cool features....
dont do the pistons....
mazdamp3_18
Member
- :
- 06 gti, 06 evo IX
i am actually contemplating getting the greddy e-manage for my car
Well that is interesting. However there is not ecu in existance that isnt overriden by our ecu. Second wouldnt the j-spec engine have a similar af management as the aspec....if not why cant we buy one. Also there are people on these boards with HC pistons...Couldnt i just run high octane fuel. Anyway i dont see how u could have detonation since the compression isnt as high as some turbos out there...someof which arent realy managed either....Also this is the first time i have heard this regarding HC pistons and i doubt that without proper management i would only net 3-5whp
mazdamp3_18
Member
- :
- 06 gti, 06 evo IX
linuxracer had a full jspec engine in his car with the mp3 computer and it had something like 3 hp more than stock
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
akhilleus said:Well that is interesting. However there is not ecu in existance that isnt overriden by our ecu. Second wouldnt the j-spec engine have a similar af management as the aspec....if not why cant we buy one. Also there are people on these boards with HC pistons...Couldnt i just run high octane fuel. Anyway i dont see how u could have detonation since the compression isnt as high as some turbos out there...some of which arent realy managed either....Also this is the first time i have heard this regarding HC pistons and i doubt that without proper management i would only net 3-5whp
I think you need to research this heavily regardless of what you do...First of all yes there are engine controllers that 100% override the stock ECU, being that they actually 100% replace it other than a few stock sensors...An E-manage only controls fuel maps, and it will work with an FS-DE's ECU, however eveything I have heard about them is that they are good for mild boost setups at best...They are notoriously inaccurate and offer no control of ignition timing...No good for HC...The probelm with our ECU is the Open Loop AND Closed Loop...most piggybacks work with one or the other...there are only a few that work with both...Our ECU runs on open loop at partial throttle positions and uses various sensors to determine fuel/timing requirements...at WOT the system switches to closed loop in which preset fuel maps are used...Our ecu overrides everything becuase all chips and most piggybacks simply change the sensors voltage readings in order to confuse the ECU into thinking there is a difference and in turn lean out the mixture slightly to make more power...Our ECU does not give a s*** what any of the sensors are reading at WOT becuase it is using only the preset maps...there are currently 3 available piggybacks that I know of that operate in both modes, again look up Terry's posts for info on them...
Second the J-spec ECU for the ZE is OBD-I, your engine being OBD-II...The price of converting your protege back to OBD-I would be probably the same as a Haltech E6x or more ($1100 plus installation), and you would not have any of the programmable features...
I am confused by what you posted a little...mild turbocharging is possible with the stock ECU becuase the ignition timing more or less does not need to be changed...as long as you have plenty of fuel to buffer the internal temperatures, you won't run lean and you won't have detonation...Then a system such as a E-manage allows you to map in more fuel for higher boost.. the need for the timing still isn't needed as much, again as long as the boost is below 10psi or so...Talk to Terry about that, he knows his s*** about turbo's, I do not...
Now High compression pistons are completely different all though they do a similar thing...the increase compression physically squeezes the fuel/air mixture tighter before ignition, raising expansion rates after ignition and thus creating more power from the same amount of fuel and air...But here is the bad part...with the increased compression, combustion chamber heat becomes ridiculous and since the pistons are dimensionally different and internal pressure changes, optimum ignition points change...So you need an engine controller that can change timing, and fuel maps...the increased heat usually requires more fuel as a buffer (like boosted engines) to keep detonation at bay by richening the fuel/air mixture (too high of internal engine conditions can cause detonation by 1. the mixture can ignite without the spark, 2. the mixture can expand too quickly, 3. the mixture can light on two flame points, creating a colliding explosion that usually turns your spark plugs into Anti-Aircraft projectiles..j/k, but it wrecks the engine very quickly)...all of those can cause knocking and pinging...
so a standalone is a must for high compression to this degree...You will have detonation with any of the J-spec pistons on an otherwise stock FS-DE and ECU...and I think 2-5whp would be on the optimistic side...you could probably loose power...
If 30+whp was available with a $200 set of ZE pistons everyone and their dentist would do it...
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Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
mazdamp3_18 said:linuxracer had a full jspec engine in his car with the mp3 computer and it had something like 3 hp more than stock
Yeah I remember that...and remember that engine also has the cams and intake manifold that are more hp friendly...Sorry about the above post being so long, but it is difficult to explain why these things apply and to help you not make a poor decision...
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I already understood the basics but thanks for the refresher. I talked to Tripoint about the situation, of course they use MOTEC, but they said that i would need some sort or AF...timing corrector. Now If i flashed or installed a mp3 ecu would this correct the timing? Then could i run high octane? or even a MSP ecu? Well it is appearing like this wont be feasible. I hate how limited our ECU expansion is cause normally one could pick up a piggyback for a couple hundred. So apparently the educated consensus is to go with the cam. But on this topic i do have questions. Is the j-spec intake cam emissions friendly or will i have to pull it come inspection time(the hollow cat is a easy switch). Will i need to run richer(since there is more air) and what type of realistic whp gains would i see with my curent setup. I was hoping for at least 10whp. Oh and i dont think the mazdaspeed exhaust cam or whatever srmotorsports is sellin(see other post) is worth it considering the negligible difference. i think its either the lift or duration that are equal to stock with a just a slight improvement in the other. Anyways i thought the main obstacle to the HC pistons was install cost. But i would also like to hear from those who have actually done it. Any other suggestions for aound this price range are also appreciated.
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Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
the intake cam does make the most difference...Edwin gained 12whp with both the intake cam/MSP exhuast cam and ZE intake manifold..He commented that the intake cam made the most difference from what i remember...
You confused yourself with running rich...running rich refers to too much fuel, running lean refers to too much air or not enough fuel...lean equals lots of power and a grenade...rich equals poor drivability, wet spark plugs, and bad gas mileage...FS-DE's run on the rich side from the factory, mostly for safety reasons (most every economy car does too)...the intake cam will help introduce more air into the fuel/air mixture, in turn leaning it out slightly and giving better breathing at high rpm...all that gives about 7whp...the exhuast cam is very similar to stock, but does help the slimy hydrocarbons get the **** out of the combustion chamber after the reaction...so they also help with high rpm breathing...all that for a few whp way up in the rev band...The intake manifold is up in the air to me...i don't remember the differences from stock enough to know how much power it helps with...
You confused yourself with running rich...running rich refers to too much fuel, running lean refers to too much air or not enough fuel...lean equals lots of power and a grenade...rich equals poor drivability, wet spark plugs, and bad gas mileage...FS-DE's run on the rich side from the factory, mostly for safety reasons (most every economy car does too)...the intake cam will help introduce more air into the fuel/air mixture, in turn leaning it out slightly and giving better breathing at high rpm...all that gives about 7whp...the exhuast cam is very similar to stock, but does help the slimy hydrocarbons get the **** out of the combustion chamber after the reaction...so they also help with high rpm breathing...all that for a few whp way up in the rev band...The intake manifold is up in the air to me...i don't remember the differences from stock enough to know how much power it helps with...
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