Almost got into an accident, question regarding control right before spinning out

Speed3ForMe

Member
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2008.5 CWP Mazdaspeed 3
I was on a 3 lane highway, one of the first in Los Angeles, as well as one of the most dangerous due to its twist and turns (110, East of Los Angeles, between Downtown and Pasadena).

Anyways, so its been raining a bit today and I was taking it easy and going at a safe speed (50mph) in the middle lane, when this one car starting riding up my tail, she then changed into the inside lane, right when a tighter corner appears. So she steers too much and crosses outside of the lane, into some dirt, gravel, trash and near the guardrail. This happened just as she passed me and I knew something bad was going to happen, but i couldn't explain it. This has actually happened to me another time, I also came out of it unscathed. So I backed off a lot and then saw her spin out right in front of me, her rear got tossed to the side and soon she became perpendicular and then FACING oncoming traffic, and eventually hit the guardrail. The car to my right didn't see this happen and swerved into my lane right ahead of me to avoid a head on collision. He didnt have enough time so he hit the other car headlight to headlight. I had luckily slowed down enough so that when he swerved into my lane I could fully stop, which I did. Everyone was a bit shaken up but fine.

So heres my question. When something like this happens, what can be done? In terms of the car losing traction in the rear and getting tossed perpendicular to the road and spinning out. Do you just brace for impact?

Heres an example of what happened more or less, except she spun the other way and it was on a relatively tighter curve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuIz7wPoZCs
 
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Once you're perpendicular, especially in a FWD car, it's pretty much over and hope for the best.

If you feel the rear sliding out, the best thing to do is get off the brake and let the tires roll free. If it's minor, the backend will straighten back out. If your backend is really sliding out, you should steer towards the direction you're sliding in. In other words, backend slides right, steer right.
 
Once you're perpendicular, especially in a FWD car, it's pretty much over and hope for the best.

If you feel the rear sliding out, the best thing to do is get off the brake and let the tires roll free. If it's minor, the backend will straighten back out. If your backend is really sliding out, you should steer towards the direction you're sliding in. In other words, backend slides right, steer right.

what he said. Hopefully the DSC will help out a lot. From my experience, once a FWD rear goes out it is difficult to control. On a RWD car, it is more controlled with throttle inputs.
 
Glad to see your ok. Must have been quite a scare.

Anyway not too much you can do if you lose control in such a narrow area. From my knowledge just dont slam on the brakes and yank the wheel.
 
In race traning, they teach "if you spin, both feet in." This means put in the clutch and hit the brakes. The reasoning is the brakes are much better at controlling a stop than engine braking, and you won't stall so when you regain control you don't have to restart if you need to drive out of trouble.
 
It's a tricky answer on what you can do to save yourself from a slide in a FWD car. Car If you have enough power and enough training you bring a FWD back from really insane angles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZPxrAGcil0

The key to any FWD car that is starting to slide is to not lift your foot off the throttle. Lifting off the throttle or braking causes the nose of the car to dive and transfers weight off the rear wheels. This will only cause the rear tires to lose even more traction and the slide will get worse. That is where most people screw up. In a FWD car the last thing you want to do when it starts to slide is brake or take your foot off the gas. Steer into the slide like they always taught you, but maintain enough throttle to keep from upsetting the suspension and making things worse. The other thing that sometimes helps if the car comes unglued quicker than you can countersteer, although I wouldn't recommend it to someone who has never practiced it in a controlled environment...let go of the steering wheel. When the car is starting to slide extremely fast it can steer itself faster than you can. When the front wheels finally catch up to the slide you can catch the wheel again and countersteer normally. Watch his hands on the wheel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQ-EN-EMnw

It is very rare that anyone would ever have to use this, but I have used it in autocross situations occasionally.
 
i totally recommend a driving class... one dedicated to performance driving and developing good habits for driving a car hard..... it will teach you how a car acts when pushed near the edge, and you will learn the right way to react to what the car is doing, and how to control your driving to avoid things like you are talking about, as well as what to do (by habit) when things go wrong anyway.... it gives you an extra set of skills, even in everyday driving...
 
It's a tricky answer on what you can do to save yourself from a slide in a FWD car. Car If you have enough power and enough training you bring a FWD back from really insane angles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZPxrAGcil0

The key to any FWD car that is starting to slide is to not lift your foot off the throttle. Lifting off the throttle or braking causes the nose of the car to dive and transfers weight off the rear wheels. This will only cause the rear tires to lose even more traction and the slide will get worse. That is where most people screw up. In a FWD car the last thing you want to do when it starts to slide is brake or take your foot off the gas. Steer into the slide like they always taught you, but maintain enough throttle to keep from upsetting the suspension and making things worse. The other thing that sometimes helps if the car comes unglued quicker than you can countersteer, although I wouldn't recommend it to someone who has never practiced it in a controlled environment...let go of the steering wheel. When the car is starting to slide extremely fast it can steer itself faster than you can. When the front wheels finally catch up to the slide you can catch the wheel again and countersteer normally. Watch his hands on the wheel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQ-EN-EMnw

It is very rare that anyone would ever have to use this, but I have used it in autocross situations occasionally.

this is exactly what i didnt do when i totaled my 6 about 2 years ago now.

Back end came slightly loose enough to feel the front end dip to the left, i felt the weight change, and ripped teh steering wheel the other way, essentially breaking free of all traction.
I was completely inexperienced and learned my lesson. Im a much better driver because of it today.
 
i totally recommend a driving class... one dedicated to performance driving and developing good habits for driving a car hard..... it will teach you how a car acts when pushed near the edge, and you will learn the right way to react to what the car is doing, and how to control your driving to avoid things like you are talking about, as well as what to do (by habit) when things go wrong anyway.... it gives you an extra set of skills, even in everyday driving...

+10

There is NOTHING like getting experience in a controlled environment and getting instant feedback by drivers who also train racecar drivers, nothing! Yes, good ones are expensive, but think of it in terms of an investment, just one accident you avoid because of being better trained might offset the money put in to the course, and that's not taking into account that someone ends up in a hospital, from then on, money starts jumping out of people's pockets very quickly; and if someone's quality of life is compromised as a consecuence of an accident, well, that's just priceless.

I second what other people also say about not taking your foot off the gas in the event of oversteer. It also applies to RWD cars, but you have to have a very sensitive right foot in order to not overwhelm the tires and loose even more traction(assuming that an exhuberant right foot is NOT what got you into trouble in the first place).

Another important point is that while countersteering (opposite lock) is a necesary step in regaining car control, its critical you remove opposite lock at the right time. Let's use the OP's posted link of a civic.

First minor slide starts just after 10s into the vid, a small steer into the left, brakes on and off, and the car oversteers, he brakes some more and countersteers. At this point he transfered weight to the front wheels, making them gain more traction and after a couple of factions of a second he regains control, but he has opposite lock on, so the wheels are pointing towards the left instead of towards the center of the road. At this point the car will follow the front wheels, and since they are still pointing towards the left hand side, because he hasn't taken off opposite lock, the car flings to the left violently; he ran himself out of talent in the first little twitch and was just a passenger from then on.

You can see on xelderx fist vid (pushy plato) how it should be done. The car looses control, opposite lock is applied, and then when everything sorts out, at around 9s, he takes opposite lock off and straightens out the steering and behold, the car follows the front wheels into the straight.

Most people facing oversteer will, on instinct, countersteer, but not many will remove opposite lock at the right time, and it's on the second slide where they crash out. It's truly a feel thing, and you can only gain it by practicing, in a controlled environment, preferably getting feedback by someone who knows what you should be doing :)
 
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In race traning, they teach "if you spin, both feet in." This means put in the clutch and hit the brakes. The reasoning is the brakes are much better at controlling a stop than engine braking, and you won't stall so when you regain control you don't have to restart if you need to drive out of trouble.

No, this is taught so you continue to spin/slide off the tarmac onto the grass/sand runoff area where there are less things for you to hit. Not applicable on the street.
 
gentle countersteer and ease on the gas. in a 911 where the weight is all in the back, it makes a huge difference.

either way, you want to transfer weight to the rear wheels.

i recommend an autocross. the moves are way more "violent". you can go all day as a newbie track star and never get into any trouble. on a proper AX course, things go wrong all the time. but safely.
 
If anything, a FWD car should be easier to gather in from a slide, because, if you have enough power, like xelderx points out, you can basically pull yourself out, no matter what the angle.

You just have to counter your instinct to let off the gas and slam the brakes.

It's more interesting in a RWD... more gas equals more spin... more brake equals more spin...

The correct quote is "When in doubt, both feet out, when in a spin, both feet in." Meaning, when the car is starting to go, don't touch anything No brake, no gas, just focus on bringing the car under control and try to avoid upsetting its balance by shifting weight with the pedals, then when the car is beyond recovery, both feet in... clutch and brakes... to bring the car to a stop as soon as possible.
 
Realistically, none of us have enough HP to pull our cars out of perpendicular slides. And quoting race car videos where those drivers are absolutely incredible isn't really going to help the average driver. This is especially true if there is traffic ahead and you can't pin the gas to get yourself out of a slide.
I agree that driving lessons can really make a difference.

I like Niky's quote. If you're sliding, get your feet off the pedals and keep the car as straight as possible. Make slight gradual adjustments if necessary.
I applied this technique a few weeks ago when I was driving too fast on an icey freeway. I should have known because it was freezing outside and looking back I wasn't thinking right, I was in a hurry.
I had to apply the brakes as I saw people braking ahead. As soon as I touched the pedal, my back end started to lose composure. I quickly got off all pedals and just steered until my car straightened back out. I was lucky I had lots of space to get on and off the brakes enough to slow down in time and not spin out into the concrete divider.
I'll just have to leave earlier in the mornings.
 
I was on a 3 lane highway, one of the first in Los Angeles, as well as one of the most dangerous due to its twist and turns (110, East of Los Angeles, between Downtown and Pasadena).

Anyways, so its been raining a bit today and I was taking it easy and going at a safe speed (50mph) in the middle lane, when this one car starting riding up my tail, she then changed into the inside lane, right when a tighter corner appears. So she steers too much and crosses outside of the lane, into some dirt, gravel, trash and near the guardrail. This happened just as she passed me and I knew something bad was going to happen, but i couldn't explain it. This has actually happened to me another time, I also came out of it unscathed. So I backed off a lot and then saw her spin out right in front of me, her rear got tossed to the side and soon she became perpendicular and then FACING oncoming traffic, and eventually hit the guardrail. The car to my right didn't see this happen and swerved into my lane right ahead of me to avoid a head on collision. He didnt have enough time so he hit the other car headlight to headlight. I had luckily slowed down enough so that when he swerved into my lane I could fully stop, which I did. Everyone was a bit shaken up but fine.

So heres my question. When something like this happens, what can be done? In terms of the car losing traction in the rear and getting tossed perpendicular to the road and spinning out. Do you just brace for impact?
This is not a straightforward question with a single simple answer that will give you a road-map for accident avoidance in the future. Vehicle dynamics are complex, and depending on your goals when trying to deal with a loss of control, you may do very different things. It also depends on your confidence level behind the wheel (hopefully a realistic level of convidence and faith in your abilities, knowing both your limits and your strengths, and not some unwarranted and egotistical level of convidence that you are Vin Diesel from The Fast and the Furious).

One person has said that a race prep course taught him to clutch in and hammer the brakes, but the goal there is to induce a predictable slide off of the track so the other drivers don't have to play guessing games on how the car ahead of them is going to react. It doesn't exactly allow you to steer much, or avoid obstacles, but in a race you are going fast and the track is generally clear so all you're going to do is drift off the course into runoff areas or kitty litter. Plus all the various safety equipment that is mandatory for racing (helmet, for example) makes drifting off in one direction is safe under these conditions. This is much less true in traffic.

The easiest answer to give you would be to not get into the situation in the first place. She was driving at speed and put herself into a situations of compromised traction, possibly one half of the vehicle on good pavement, and one half in slicker, wet, oil and grime covered shoulder. This in and of itself shouldn't present a problem to a driver, even in a corner, because your outside wheels in a corner do most of the gripping in a corner. More specifically, your outside front tire bears the majority of the load. In a case where only half her cars grip is compromised, she could easily have handled the situation simply by easing off throttle or going into neutral and driving out of the situation carefully with gentle steering inputs until she was back in traffic. If she got both front tires into the slick stuff on the side of the road and washed out her front end, it's likely she'd have understeered/pushed through the corner back up into her lane and also been fine. Given the description of the situation and the speeds we're talking about, her spinning out seems to indicate she lost traction somewhere and overreacted, responded to it too quickly. Maybe she felt her back end walk out on her as she went into the slippery stuff on the side of the road, and she came off throttle or hit the brakes, unweighting the rear and causing herself to spin (this seems most likely to me). I think it likely that she put herself in an unnecessarily dangerous situation and then reacted to it poorly. It generally takes a lot of little factors to cause the loss of control of a vehicle, a chain of events that leads to the eventual tipping point between tenuous control and a loss of control.

Most modern cars are incredibly forgiving when you start reaching the limits of lateral grip. You can often lose control and then regain it a moment later quite easily, and in fact this is one advantage of FWD vehicles and their tendency to understeer. It's not like a Porsche or a race car where when you exceed grip and lose control, it is gone forever, especially not when you are at ~50 mph. That said, smaller, gentler, smooth vehicle inputs (steering, brake, gas) all do a better job of redirecting the vehicle in the way that you want without completely upsetting the balance of your vehicle, which helps prevent you from exceeding the grip you have available while still allowing you to get out of most sticky situations. Once the spin was induced, there is no gauruntee that you could ever get control back, as vehicle balance and grip have been so seriously compromised that getting it back is hard, especially at highway speeds. Deciding how to get out of it is something that depends on driver skill, the vehicle you're in, how fast you are going, how bad the spin is, how heavy traffic is, how much space and time you have to try and engineer a recovery. You may be able to steer into the skid (ass-end going right, you steer right) and hold it. You may try that and have the front end grip suddenly, causing the rear to snap back the other way, spinning you even harder. You may get completely sideways and start steering with the skid to try and bring yourself fully around, use momentum and turn against the skid once you are facing the wrong way to complete the 360 and get back to the proper orientation. It may even be best to just drift sideways into the barrier and avoid hurting other people or hitting something head on rather than with the passenger side or rear end of the vehicle. It's hard to say, not being behind the wheel and not having seen the situation play out.

There are a few things you can do to make it more likely that you can regain control in situations like this. Neutral/clutching in is your friend as it removes engine load from the front wheels, giving them 100% of available grip to brake or steer as needed, and allowing the front end to roll will generally prevent your front wheels from sliding on slippery surfaces (this is very important for winter driving on ice and snow). You can drive to conditions so that if you do lose control you are not having to try and regain it at high speeds, as speed makes the lateral forces involved in a spin much, much greater and therefor much less likely that you can ever deal with them. You can remember to try and be smooth and gentle in your vehicle inputs, learn how and why braking or accelerating can "unbalance" (or in some cases, rebalance) your vehicle, learn how and why steering inputs can unbalance or rebalance your vehicle, and remember that drastic changes in vehicle attitude will only make the situation worse. You can do things like go to empty parking lots and practice dealing with slides (but you are in California, and I don't recommend doing things like that on dry pavement. Up here in Canuckistan we get 4 months out of the year where we can play around in parking lots, and it really does help to just know how your car will react in various situations, and to try and figure out how to best correct for it). And most importantly, you can gain the experience you need by taking courses.

As for what you did as the observer? Full marks. You recognized the situation before it happened (the hardest thing to do, and also the most important step in dealing with these sorts of situations). You slowed down to give yourself more space. I don't get the impression that you slammed on the brakes, which is good because that will probably get you rear-ended on a freeway. Vision, time, space, anticipation and driving to conditions will save you from 99% of all situations you'll ever face on the road, so that you never need to try to recover from a spin at 50mph on a multi-lane freeway in traffic.
 
I'm at work and don't have time to read everyone's posts, and this was probably already mentions, but back when i had my specv, this actually happened to me a few times (I think the specV had a tendancy to lose control because I've never had any issues like this in any other car I've owned) this is what always works for me, and I learned these techniques by taking summer tires out to an open parking lot when it snows:

1. Stay calm
2. Don't even touch the break at all, keep your foot off of it
3. keep your foot on the gas at a consistant throttle, not to hard and not to soft (this is learned through practice)
4. On a FWD car, you steer into the direction that the FRONT END is spinning
5. And what most people don't ever think of using is the parking break. Pump the parking break quickly to slow you down and let the front end hook.

This has worked for me many times, even one time when I have 5 people in my specV and it would have been totaled when I was going around a turn in the rain and started to spin. Rain is SO tricky to drive in, I find it more tricky than snow because snow is very predictable.
 

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