a boatload of questions for you megasquirt gurus

[yudkib]

so my mind is almost completely made up that i will run MSIII at some point and am starting my research. unfortunately i know next to nothing about ignition right now, but im learning. ive got a few questions to help me get started in the reading, and a little about what some people around here are running...

OK first things first: fuel
how hard is getting fuel only to run on the MSP? how much work is there outside of wiring? doesnt seem like much from what ive seen but just checking

on to ignition...
i know we have a wasted spark/COP setup, but ive also read some stuff that the 3rd gen proteges are ford EDIS setups but with built in ignitors... so you can follow MS's EDIS instruction set, we already have a 36/1 wheel, and you just add a resistor or two during assembly (5.6k rings a bell offhand). am i on the right track? what else did you do for your setup/just to get ignition working?

and standalone possibilities...
ive considered trying to make this a standalone. that would mean external voltage regulators, and possibly relays for things like A/C, rear defrost, fans, etc. i would have to dig a lot deeper in the wiring of the car to figure out exactly what. does anyone run MS as full standalone?
i realize if you were to take MS full standalone you would lose OBDII functions. what else do you definitely lose, and is losing OBDII worth reconsidering a decision to make it standalone?

ill post if i think of other questions. thanks in advance.

 

[XoX1de]

ditch the EDIS setup, the protege look like a EDIS setup but it is not. Wasted spark and direct coil ignition control is the only way.

All you need is the crank sensor signal, and you enter the right information on crank wheel decode, choose single wheel with missing tooth, 36 trigger wheel teeth, 1 missing tooth, tooth angle #1 at TDC = 80 degree

As for fuel wiring, its simple, all injector are powered 12v and they activate when you ground the wire.. so you only have 4 wire to connect, cyl 1 and 4 is batch 1 and cyl 2 3 is batch 2, in the setting you have to activate both injector batch to make the car work properly. You have to use the staging alternating firing injection in config, and make sure the injection is on right time ( injection occur during piston intake TDC to BDC and not during combustion TDC to BDC). The cam sensor is no longer needed. you can leave it plugged though.

I have all the config except ffor the wiring diagram, my car is a 626, but its same engine anyway.

2 thing you need to know is Im using Ford coilpack as ingnition because 626 dont have Coil on plug, so the dwell time for COP should me 2.5ms instead of 3.5ms. Second, my injectors are 420cc WRX

VE table under boost

VE table above boost

Spark table under boost

Spark table above boost

AFR target map

I love my MS2, the AFR tuning is easy as pie, it does the tune by looking wideband o2 feedback automaticcaly. so If i want 12.0 AFR in boost, it will do it for me.

 

[XoX1de]

and standalone possibilities...
ive considered trying to make this a standalone. that would mean external voltage regulators, and possibly relays for things like A/C, rear defrost, fans, etc. i would have to dig a lot deeper in the wiring of the car to figure out exactly what. does anyone run MS as full standalone?
i realize if you were to take MS full standalone you would lose OBDII functions. what else do you definitely lose, and is losing OBDII worth reconsidering a decision to make it standalone?

ill post if i think of other questions. thanks in advance.

For alternator, I run 626 altnernator so I dont have the voltage regulate thing in protege. Thats the only easy way to fix is to buy a 626 alternator. I deleted my AC so its not a problem anymore, OBD2 is for diagnose, why you want it? the only thing that you need essentially is fan control , which u can choose a input to ground the fan relay to make it work. Thats configurable in output port contorl in MS. You also have to control the IAC, which is PWM valve. EGR, MAF, VICS VTCS purge and o2 are no longer need so you can delete tthem.

 

[Speed3.5]

which software are you using xox1de ?
which ford COP are you using ?

 

[XoX1de]

im using tunerstudio, its has just been released last week, there lite version which is free and a pro version which is MUCH better for 39.99

im not using COP, im using ford coil pack, it comes stock with 626.

 

[yudkib]

wow, thanks for all the detailed info. are you running it as full standalone?

like i said, most of my reading has been on EDIS and using an inverted spark map and the resistor in parallel to retain tach and blah blah blah. it seemed close to plug-n-play. whats the primary advantage of using direct ignition? is there ignition hardware i need to change (i.e. removing an EDIS module or changing to the 1.8 setup)? pardon the noob ignition questions... its the only thing im still confused about and im still in the early reading stages.

ill have to look at the external regulators for the alternators more. i could convert to a 626 alternator, but im cheap and look to save where i can. AC is not being deleted since its my DD. as for the emissions stuff, i have to retain as much of that as possible unless i want to try to find an OBDII sim, since i actually need it for emissions when they plug in the OBDII checker. im sure theres ways to remove all the CEL's but i would like to make this close to PnP or at least be able to switch back with less than a days worth of work if i need to. and i think theres more info out there on getting that stuff to work on the relay board. i wouldnt mind having the OBD for diagnosis but if thats the only thing i lose by going standalone ill manage.

by the way, how did you get all the values for the tables? was that something you found on the DIY forums or in the shop manual, trial and error... something else?

 

[XoX1de]

Yes im running full standalone, got rid completely the old ECU.

the value are simply done by searching the specification of the part, and I have done a lot of math to calculate the right value. Like coil dwell, theres a formula which i dont know by heart, I have to mesure the coils impedance and calculate the dwell based on Vbatt. I cant tell you all the detail because this thread will turn into a book. but with the info i posted, it makes your car run. as for the VE table, I can post but its based on my own car modification.


Only trail and error is the spark advance table which caused my old motor blow up. But now I put the right value so it is not a problem anymore.

Direct coil control allows spark cut launch control, which cannot be fonctional with EDIS. Direct coil drive is much easier, if you want more information you can contact DIYautotune or glens garage, they will answer you everything. What you change in the direct coil drive is add a secondairy transistor in MS3 module and control the 2nd coils 1+4 or 2+3.

I will add my VE map and ignition map in the first post so take a look, be advised its aimed on my own modification, use at your risk. It will make your car run

 

[yudkib]

awesome information. this stuff needs to be stickied, as it is infinitely more useful than almost anything else ive found.

is the spark advance table pretty close to stock? retarded from stock at all? i know you were looking for stock values at one point, and id really rather not have my engine end up like yours by learning the hard way.

all the changes for direct spark is on the MS side and not the vehicle side? ive definitely got more reading to do on that, as well as trying to get reasonable values for VE. defintely a lot more reading...

 

[XoX1de]

Yes the spark table I have is closed to stock, pump gas 91 octane, will achieve you 35+ mpg. I blow my engine because I advanced to much in boost area, instead of 12degre of timing I put 21. I suggest you do a VE analyse first you let MS3 tune the VE table for you (you need to connect wideband), then get on a dyno for the spark stuff.

No you dont change anything on the engine, only in MS3 module depending your need. I recommand you to let diyautotune to build your megasquirt, by telling them the option you want:

COP wastedspark setup direct coil control for 4 cylinder
1 fan relay output
4 high-Z injectors
36-1 crank wheel with VR sensor
ford PWM idle valve
wideband input
tach output

by tellin them these spec they will build one for you

 

[yudkib]

dude, i cant thank you enough for all of the info you put up in the last two days. you clearly put a lot of time into determining the config parameter/values and a lot of the ignition parameters. i sincerely hope this gets stickied since i couldnt find anything resembling that info anywhere, and i wasnt even looking for a lot of it... i was looking for answers and you had all of those too.

ill probably build it myself, just to get the experience in case i ever want to upgrade/change it/do it again. by the way, when you blew up your motor, what was the cause? too much advance makes me think detonation, yes?

 

[XoX1de]

my water injection was on so it shouldnt be detonation, the stock rod simply cant handle the pressure of over advanced timing, especially boosting with a t3/t4. Its more a fact of the tiny ass rod + wrong timing setting that blow my engine. The timing map I have now is way different that the one I used to blow engine, so you dont need to worry. If you build it yourself, read carefully the assembly procedure, follow all the steps. If you have question you can ask here if i cant answer it you can send a email to glensgarage.

 

[yudkib]

if i have the jstim i should be fine. ive done some hobbyist soldering before, nothing this intense, but i should be OK.

 

[XoX1de]

this is my first time buidling ms2 and i have not used the jstim, maybe im lucky, it all worked on first start lol. if i get back in the time i would get a jstim too, id pay to not have the stress. Soldering is not hard, the hard part is knowing what you need to solder and what not to. You will see during the build, the manual asks you if you use Hall or VR input circuit, our car use VR so you dont need to solder all the Hall circuit resistors capacitors etc. Same for the injector, we use high impedance injectors so you dont need to solder low Z flyback circuit.

 

[Speed3.5]

Yeah, xox1de is right, building your own is somewhat challenging since the instruction are too general and thats where you'll get frustrated.

As for the software, I tried that one (thought it was that one), but it doesn't seem to like WIN7 or might just be my case. and from my try it had like 30 day trial then you'd have to pay for it so I got rid of it the following week and forgot about it.
I thought you had some other coil's but why didn't you go with MSP's coil set up, pricier ?
BTW- what additional features you've got in your MSII (beside relay control for fans) ?

note: thnx for posting the maps, is this your base map ? I'll need to base mine off of someone

 

[XoX1de]

Yeah, xox1de is right, building your own is somewhat challenging since the instruction are too general and thats where you'll get frustrated.

As for the software, I tried that one (thought it was that one), but it doesn't seem to like WIN7 or might just be my case. and from my try it had like 30 day trial then you'd have to pay for it so I got rid of it the following week and forgot about it.
I thought you had some other coil's but why didn't you go with MSP's coil set up, pricier ?
BTW- what additional features you've got in your MSII (beside relay control for fans) ?

note: thnx for posting the maps, is this your base map ? I'll need to base mine off of someone

well i used in 7 and it works great, it need java though, and the lite version is free theres no 30 day trail. My car come with coil pack stock so I dont want to change the wiring much.

Beside fan relay, i have 2 step launch control, flatshift.

Its my base map im running, for tuned up to 15psi with t3/t4. you can see i got full boost around 4500 so my ve change drastically in that area. if you use stock turbo you can use the vacuum map but not the boost one.

 

[XoX1de]

MODs I vote for a sticky and put it in engine management section

 

[yudkib]

as mentioned, me too. i pmed wagonbacker late last night, maybe we'll see some action today.

 

[yudkib]

bump for a sticky

 

[disturbedfan121]

Awesome info in here. def should be a sticky.

I'm looking to get a MS for this car just for fuel really, get rid of the stupid rich table in the stock ecu, get more power, and better mpg's

 

[Amdeus]

im using tunerstudio, its has just been released last week, there lite version which is free and a pro version which is MUCH better for 39.99

im not using COP, im using ford coil pack, it comes stock with 626.

There is a screamen demon pak also. http://focus.c-f-m.com/msdperformancecoilpackforfordzx2zetec.aspx