Winter is here and my CX-5 turbo is now a 2.0L!

[Unobtanium]

Looks like the poors have showed up...

Joking, but this has always been an interesting statistic to me which I am sure is still pretty true:
Additionally, CX-5 owners earn more money. On average, owners have a median household income of $93,000, compared with $90,130 for the Small SUV segment in general.

I have been curious where Rav4Prime houshold income is and how I measure up to that. Of course I am a household of one, so there's also that, other than me letting a roommate live here for 13 weeks, they don't pay any bills, so I can't count 'em, lol!

 

[7eregrine]

The poors...

$86,818

Toyota RAV4 owners are not as affluent, enjoying a median annual household income of $86,818 (vs. $92,841).Mar 2, 2020

 

[sm1ke]

Let's get back on topic guys, thanks.

If you'd like, I can create a separate thread and move the household income posts over there? Let me know if you guys want to discuss further.

 

[chickdr]

I posted somewhere in this thread that appears to be exactly what is happening.
Or, to be more clear, it's not building more than a few pounds of boost in 1st and 2nd gears.
ECU could be limiting the amount the throttle body is opening or it could be the waste gate preventing it (or something else?).

I logged via Bluetooth OBDII adapter and Torque app when I had an extended test drive.
I didn't dig too far into it, just that I noticed boost was low/non-existent in 1st and 2nd gears when below that 20F threshold.

Are you able to log pedal position vs. throttle body position? That would be useful to understand if they (Mazda) are limiting throttle body opening.

I guess the question is why would Mazda do this? If anything colder air should be beneficial to an FI motor. Is it because they are scared you will encounter icy roads and crash as you have too much power? It would be really interesting to talk to a Mazda engineer about this issue.

 

[Unobtanium]

I guess the question is why would Mazda do this? If anything colder air should be beneficial to an FI motor. Is it because they are scared you will encounter icy roads and crash as you have too much power? It would be really interesting to talk to a Mazda engineer about this issue.

None were available to me, and I was stonewalled by everyone I spoke to about it. Yes, it is absurd that cold air makes mazda turbo slow.

 

[jcrout7992]

I guess the question is why would Mazda do this? If anything colder air should be beneficial to an FI motor. Is it because they are scared you will encounter icy roads and crash as you have too much power? It would be really interesting to talk to a Mazda engineer about this issue.

There’s no justifiable “safety” reason for power to drop THAT much. I attribute it to cost constraints. Being familiar with budgets, I can see them dealing with a hard cap on R&D/tuning for the 2.5T in the CX-5 application. Especially when you consider the other 2.5T applications don’t experience the same issue. I’m sure Mazda had to sacrifice a number of things to get the CX-5 down to the price point it’s at. It IS a tremendous value when you compare it to everything else in its class.

 

[chickdr]

There’s no justifiable “safety” reason for power to drop THAT much. I attribute it to cost constraints. Being familiar with budgets, I can see them dealing with a hard cap on R&D/tuning for the 2.5T in the CX-5 application. Especially when you consider the other 2.5T applications don’t experience the same issue. I’m sure Mazda had to sacrifice a number of things to get the CX-5 down to the price point it’s at. It IS a tremendous value when you compare it to everything else in its class.

But again, why? If this doesn't happen in the other models which use this engine they had to deliberately program it this way in the CX-5.

 

[jcrout7992]

But again, why? If this doesn't happen in the other models which use this engine they had to deliberately program it this way in the CX-5.

I highly doubt we’ll ever get an answer from Mazda. I think they just did a sloppy job of tuning for cold weather and didn’t have the budget to resolve it. As Burger gets further into the JB4 development for the CX-5 I think we’ll find out what the cause is, but not the reason.

 

[Unobtanium]

I highly doubt we’ll ever get an answer from Mazda. I think they just did a sloppy job of tuning for cold weather and didn’t have the budget to resolve it. As Burger gets further into the JB4 development for the CX-5 I think we’ll find out what the cause is, but not the reason.

I disagree strongly. You're saying Mazda could develop an entite new tune for the turbo 3, and not expand their temp tables a bit?

Nevermind developing multiple entire new platforms....increasingly torque in 2021, and hp by 6 in 2022 for this legacy platform...

 

[jcrout7992]

I disagree strongly. You're saying Mazda could develop an entite new tune for the turbo 3, and not expand their temp tables a bit?

Nevermind developing multiple entire new platforms....increasingly torque in 2021, and hp by 6 in 2022 for this legacy platform...

I’m saying they’re choosing not to. There’s nothing that necessitates a hard boost cut like that. Engines don’t become ticking time bombs at 19 degrees Fahrenheit. I’m sure it can be resolved, but it’ll cost time and money they don’t want to spend.

 

[sm1ke]

I guess the question is why would Mazda do this? If anything colder air should be beneficial to an FI motor. Is it because they are scared you will encounter icy roads and crash as you have too much power? It would be really interesting to talk to a Mazda engineer about this issue.

That's the million dollar question. I personally think that it's an engine protection measure, maybe to prevent overboost. There have been a couple of instances where something similar happens with other factory turbocharged engines.

It's really annoying to have it happen to you and not know why. At the very least, they should note the reduction in power in the Owner's Manual so people aren't left scratching their heads when they want the power and don't get it.

But again, why? If this doesn't happen in the other models which use this engine they had to deliberately program it this way in the CX-5.

It does happen on other models, it just doesn't seem to be as drastic as the CX-5. For example, in my CX-9, I recorded a 0-100 km/h time that was almost one full second slower when the temps were cold enough. On the CX-5, some were reporting 0-60 times that were two seconds slower when temps were cold enough. As far as I know, Mazda3/CX-30/Mazda6 owners either have not experienced this issue, or they haven't driven in a manner where they would notice the restriction.

 

[7eregrine]

I've never even heard the term... overboost. If your turbo is that shoddy that overboosting is a possibility then someone messed up somewhere in the design phase.
I do think it is some kind of protection but not for the turbo.

 

[sm1ke]

I've never even heard the term... overboost. If your turbo is that shoddy that overboosting is a possibility then someone messed up somewhere in the design phase.
I do think it is some kind of protection but not for the turbo.

I don't know about shoddy. Google returns a lot of results for plenty of cars that experience overboost issues - VW, Audi, Ford, Hyundai, Subaru, Mazda, the list goes on. It may just be the nature of the beast with dynamic pressure/variable geometry turbos - similar to carbon build-up risk on DI engines.

I would be interested to see if there are any issues that arise once Burger eliminates the restriction with their JB4.

 

[7eregrine]

I stand by shoddy. LOL If this is happening to your turbo, it is broken. It should be designed in such a way to prevent over boosting. (*Note Spell check doesn't knw the word "overboost". ) This, below, should never happen in a properly designed system. I am also no expert, but I've owned 3 Saab turbo cars and was a mod at SaabCentral... we never had boosting issues that weren't attributable to broken turbos.

What is overboost? | Carbuyer​

Overboost is when the turbocharger runs at a higher pressure (forces more air into the engine) than would be sustainable on a constant basis.

 

[sm1ke]

I stand by shoddy. LOL If this is happening to your turbo, it is broken. It should be designed in such a way to prevent over boosting. (*Note Spell check doesn't knw the word "overboost". ) This, below, should never happen in a properly designed system. I am also no expert, but I've owned 3 Saab turbo cars and was a mod at SaabCentral... we never had boosting issues that weren't attributable to broken turbos.

What is overboost? | Carbuyer​

Overboost is when the turbocharger runs at a higher pressure (forces more air into the engine) than would be sustainable on a constant basis.

How is it "broken" if it appears to be there by design? For something to be broken, it has to be doing (or not doing) something that it used to do normally. The restriction appears to be present in every single turbocharged CX-5, and only at temps below 20f, with normal operation returning in higher gears and/or warmer temps.

I'm no expert either, but I don't think Saabs had dynamic pressure/variable geometry turbos. At least, not like the turbos found in modern passenger cars that are designed to minimize turbo lag so that they don't feel like 4cyl engines. My guess is that the restriction is due to the dynamic pressure characteristic of the turbocharger, and Mazda didn't have the resources to conduct further R&D on how to handle it in cold weather, so they just slapped the restriction on assuming that people wouldn't be pinning the accelerator in cold temps. Just my guess though.

 

[7eregrine]

No, I am not saying this behavior means something is broken. It is clearly by design. I am saying the reason it was designed this way *cannot* be because of a worry that these turbos may over boost. If over boosting was ever an issue, I would certainly hope it wouldn't be a problem for a modern dynamic pressure variable geometric turbo engine.

 

[youri]

The fact that it only happens in specific gears to me rules out any « turbo protection » reasons. The fact that you are in first gear or second gear doesn’t change the boost characteristics at the engine level.

Could it be related to wheel slip prevention ? I think they added some controls in the CX-5 to help prevent the torque steer experienced in the CX-9 at WOT. ( I have not test driven a turbo CX-5, but the torque steer experienced in the bigger CX-9 would be very present in a lighter CX-5 if there weren’t some changes applied)

 

[finch204]

Wow I'm surprised this thread is still going... Mainly surprised that Mazda has not done anything to quell the complaints in this thread.

Maybe it is not an issue with overboost, but a boost creep issue in cold weather with their fancy dynamic pressure turbo.

I admit to not having read all the pages in between since I was last on here. But has anyone tried disabling traction control before launching from WOT in really cold weather?

Also I know people have been quoting 0-60 times in here. This is genuine question (no sarcasm), how do you know that tires are not a factor when the temps drop really low? I'm just thinking traction for the same tires is not going to be the same at below 28F versus say 40F.

My theory and this thread is full of it, is that Mazda sees the CX-5 as a family car and is treating it as that, from a family safety perspective. You want to go WOT at below 30F temps, Mazda might allow more power in the Mazda3 and Mazda6, but went the conservative route in the CX-5.

Also, and I think I've asked this in this tread before. How do you know that you will get traction in below 30F temps if the CX-5 will give you full boost in 1st and 2nd gear?

 

[sm1ke]

Wow I'm surprised this thread is still going... Mainly surprised that Mazda has not done anything to quell the complaints in this thread.

Maybe it is not an issue with overboost, but a boost creep issue in cold weather with their fancy dynamic pressure turbo.

I admit to not having read all the pages in between since I was last on here. But has anyone tried disabling traction control before launching from WOT in really cold weather?

Also I know people have been quoting 0-60 times in here. This is genuine question (no sarcasm), how do you know that tires are not a factor when the temps drop really low? I'm just thinking traction for the same tires is not going to be the same at below 28F versus say 40F.

My theory and this thread is full of it, is that Mazda sees the CX-5 as a family car and is treating it as that, from a family safety perspective. You want to go WOT at below 30F temps, Mazda might allow more power in the Mazda3 and Mazda6, but went the conservative route in the CX-5.

Also, and I think I've asked this in this tread before. How do you you will get traction in below 30F temps if the CX-5 will give you full boost in 1st and 2nd gear?

I think people have tried TCS off and it didn't change the behaviour.

Earlier in this thread I speculated that maybe Mazda does this because all-season rubber starts to get harder at temps below 44F, and 20F is the limit they decided on because that's when road salt starts to become less effective. No idea if that's true, but in the end, Mazda's reasoning is likely a combination of the many theories that have been put forward in this thread. They just won't acknowledge it or confirm it, which is annoying to say the least.

Regarding your last statement, those who are complaining about the issue don't really care whether they will have traction or not, or whether they'll hit a black ice patch. What they do care about is the fact that they bought (or are paying for) a car that advertises peak torque of 310-320 lb-ft at just over 2k RPM, but they don't get that when it's cold out, and Mazda isn't telling them why.

 

[Odrapnew]

I don't see why it would be a traction issue.
Sure it has a bunch of power/torque, but it's not enough to really overwhelm all season tires.
And even if it could, they don't have to completely chastise it. Maybe 1/2 boost in the lower gears.

Hell, I've launched my Golf R in below 30F with summer tires (i.e. hockey pucks at that temp) and it didn't have much issue maintaining traction. Maybe a little bit of traction reduction, but it was still a rocket. That car makes close to 300lbft torque and weights ~500lbs less than an AWD CX5. I understand they are completely different vehicles, just pointing out that traction isn't a reasonable excuse in my eyes.

I don't think it's boost creep since usually that happens during longer full boost runs (such as higher gears).

The big issue is when you're expecting power and it's just not there. The CX5 is the only vehicle I've driven that didn't/doesn't deliver the power all the time.