I don't think a V6 is on the menu
Subaru owner reviews AWD on Mazda CX 9
- Thread starter Drogos
- Start date
I don't think a V6 is on the menu
Nope. No V6 option. Will be a 2.5 turbo. Sourced from Mazda themselves as it will be a skyactive im sure. Which is just an updated MZR.
Wow. Thanks everyone for all the info. this thread turned very informative while I was away.
Yep. Yep. Took another one for a spin same day. Beat up to hell 2007 with weird hammering marks on all inner door frames (WTF!!! ). Car drove perfectly fine though and luckily in that area I had a lot of snowy/icy parking lots so could easily test out AWD.
Goodyear eagle tires that are total s*** in my book and mazda's AWD did just fine. Actually, very similarly to my outback on 4 years old winter tires. CX 9 is much heavier car and since it was sitting on the parking lot for a while, I bet tire pressure was low. I tend to keep PSI on the higher end on my subarus so my guess is that all those variables rendered pretty much identical results in this particular situation. Less snow/more ice and/or uphill would be a totally different game based mostly on tire selection BUT .....Mazda's AWD is totally fine and sooooo much better than the previous car I have tested. The other one certainly has Transfer case shot.
I can confirm from my own experience that type of fluid does make a difference whether it's engine, tranny or differential. Should it matter to the point of catastrophic failure ??? No way!!!! If part is poorly designed and there is additional stress, quality or simply right fluid for this part becomes absolutely necessary though.
As other have mentioned, I am wandering which part of TC fails and once failed and seized, how to evaluate if it is TC only that grinded itself to the ground or did it take anything else with it. Evaluating all that during test drive is probably too much to ask.
I am definitely changing fluid the moment I am buying CX 9. Considering to just swap TC since it seems to be an easy enough service and once new and proper fluid changed every 10k or so.....it should last or at least I will have early indication of excessive wear.
Couple questions guys:
1. Is AWD turned FWD the only possible outcome during TC failure? I guess what I am asking is: if there is any chance that catastrophic TC failure would actually immobilize vehicle on the road? I am planning on couple road trips this year with family so while FWD might not be an issue, messed up tranny might turn out to be a big one.
2. TC test that was mentioned in the beginning of this thread implies that AWD is locked by default ?? IS that the case? I thought it was FWD that switches to AWD on demand ?
3. To those who own GT trim. Would you spend extra 1k or so on used GT vs. T version? I really love overall package but forum members seem to complain about the actual performance from specific added features of GT. Bose is considered to be mediocre among higher end audio systems. HIDs seem to satisfactory at best. Keyless start has a lot of bad rep. etc.
Thanks
1. Is AWD turned FWD the only possible outcome during TC failure? I guess what I am asking is: if there is any chance that catastrophic TC failure would actually immobilize vehicle on the road? I am planning on couple road trips this year with family so while FWD might not be an issue, messed up tranny might turn out to be a big one.
AWD turned FWD, so far this is what we have seen. some owners aren't even aware the car is FWD until the first snowfall as you have proven during your first test drive. However, there are many signs/symptoms even before that even happens. First whining groaning sound in 1st/2nd gear (indication of sludge and gears not lubricated properly). Second is a horrible putrid burning oil smell (indication oil is overheating). Third, black oil dripping from the transfer case vent valve (indication transfer case interior is way above designed operating temperature/pressure and oil is really cooking till pressure is so much valve opens and oil spews out and starts dripping. If none of these symptoms are addressed the transfer case gears literally get so hot they "meld" to each and seize , then "POP" all hell breaks loose and you start feeling jerking and grinding until either the transfer case gears snap or the splines of transmission splines shear off. The latter is the worst case scenario since whole transmission has to be replaced ($4500 cost)
2. TC test that was mentioned in the beginning of this thread implies that AWD is locked by default ?? IS that the case? I thought it was FWD that switches to AWD on demand ?
Simply put, the transfer case is just a "dumb" gear box turning all the time (it also turns the propeller shaft all the time) , when I mean dumb I mean no electronics, just a simple gear box to send power to the back, NOW the back is where all the brains are, there's a control box back there controlling a clutch and decides when to engage the rear differential to the propeller shaft or not. So yes, very inefficient system, transfer case AND propeller shaft turning 100% of the time, rear wheel engage only when slippage is detected. see this video below, it's exactly how the CX-9 AWD works. That Mazda TSB test is very deceptive,
it may confirm a bad transfer case BUT won't confirm sheared splines. Think about it, if the splines are sheared, putting in a new transfer case won't do any good because the transmission will just be spinning with no actual connection to the new transfer case. Only way to really confirm AWD is good is to test drive in snow to make sure BOTH transfer case AND transmission splines are GOOD.
3. To those who own GT trim. Would you spend extra 1k or so on used GT vs. T version? I really love overall package but forum members seem to complain about the actual performance from specific added features of GT. Bose is considered to be mediocre among higher end audio systems. HIDs seem to satisfactory at best. Keyless start has a lot of bad rep. etc.
This is really a personal preference, if you're handy, then not worth it, can install an aftermarket HID kit for around $60 and a really nice stereo system below $1k.
Keyless start is nice, don't have to fuss around with keys, make sure you get TWO keys otherwise you're screwed if you want spares, read up on programming a spare, you need two working advanced keys inside the car to program a spare.
AWD turned FWD, so far this is what we have seen. some owners aren't even aware the car is FWD until the first snowfall as you have proven during your first test drive. However, there are many signs/symptoms even before that even happens. First whining groaning sound in 1st/2nd gear (indication of sludge and gears not lubricated properly). Second is a horrible putrid burning oil smell (indication oil is overheating). Third, black oil dripping from the transfer case vent valve (indication transfer case interior is way above designed operating temperature/pressure and oil is really cooking till pressure is so much valve opens and oil spews out and starts dripping. If none of these symptoms are addressed the transfer case gears literally get so hot they "meld" to each and seize , then "POP" all hell breaks loose and you start feeling jerking and grinding until either the transfer case gears snap or the splines of transmission splines shear off. The latter is the worst case scenario since whole transmission has to be replaced ($4500 cost)
2. TC test that was mentioned in the beginning of this thread implies that AWD is locked by default ?? IS that the case? I thought it was FWD that switches to AWD on demand ?
Simply put, the transfer case is just a "dumb" gear box turning all the time (it also turns the propeller shaft all the time) , when I mean dumb I mean no electronics, just a simple gear box to send power to the back, NOW the back is where all the brains are, there's a control box back there controlling a clutch and decides when to engage the rear differential to the propeller shaft or not. So yes, very inefficient system, transfer case AND propeller shaft turning 100% of the time, rear wheel engage only when slippage is detected. see this video below, it's exactly how the CX-9 AWD works. That Mazda TSB test is very deceptive,
it may confirm a bad transfer case BUT won't confirm sheared splines. Think about it, if the splines are sheared, putting in a new transfer case won't do any good because the transmission will just be spinning with no actual connection to the new transfer case. Only way to really confirm AWD is good is to test drive in snow to make sure BOTH transfer case AND transmission splines are GOOD.
3. To those who own GT trim. Would you spend extra 1k or so on used GT vs. T version? I really love overall package but forum members seem to complain about the actual performance from specific added features of GT. Bose is considered to be mediocre among higher end audio systems. HIDs seem to satisfactory at best. Keyless start has a lot of bad rep. etc.
This is really a personal preference, if you're handy, then not worth it, can install an aftermarket HID kit for around $60 and a really nice stereo system below $1k.
Keyless start is nice, don't have to fuss around with keys, make sure you get TWO keys otherwise you're screwed if you want spares, read up on programming a spare, you need two working advanced keys inside the car to program a spare.
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You'll find plenty of commentary on this site regarding the benefits of the various trim levels. I chose Touring trim because I prefer the 18" wheels as they are less susceptible to curb rash, offer a slightly more compliant ride and tires are cheaper. Of the features only available on the GT, I miss the fog lights. I have the Bose system and I can't say that it's anything special.
Note that with the 2007 you're not only looking at an older car but you're looking at the 3.5L. The CX-9 has been around for a while with some minor changes here and there (mostly cosmetic) but the only significant mechanical change was the switch to the 3.7L for the 2008 model year and if you look back, the accolades for the CX-9 didn't really start pouring in until that year.
Note that with the 2007 you're not only looking at an older car but you're looking at the 3.5L. The CX-9 has been around for a while with some minor changes here and there (mostly cosmetic) but the only significant mechanical change was the switch to the 3.7L for the 2008 model year and if you look back, the accolades for the CX-9 didn't really start pouring in until that year.
astriuminc
Member
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- CX-9 2013 AWD
Agree!!! Why such an inefficient system having the transfer case AND propeller shaft turning ALL the time??? So much drag and wasted gas .... The clutch control system should be between the transmission and the transfer case that way transfer case AND propeller shaft only turns when needed.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but assuming you're driving down the road(all 4 tires turning the same speed), it doesn't matter if the AWD engagement is at the transfer case or the rear differential, the internals of the transfer case will be turning all the time(again, normal driving conditions).
Here's how I see it. With the way the system is now, the transfer case is just a gear box, as stated by batmancx, which drive the prop shaft to the rear differential. When there's slippage detected, the rear diff "locks up"(to varying degrees) to send power to the rear wheels.
Now, if you put a standard differential in the rear(think rear wheel drive only vehicle), the rear wheels will be driving the prop shaft all the time(under normal driving conditions). That prop shaft may not be turning something in the transfer case all the time, but something in the transfer case will be turning all the time. Depending on where you decouple the transfer case from the transmission will depend on how much is turning from the prop shaft.
Example 1: If you decouple the transmission and the transfer case at the splines coming out of the transmission, the prop shaft will be turning all the gears in the transfer case up to that decouple point.
Example 2: If you decouple the transfer case from the prop shaft, the transmission will be driving the gears in the transfer case all the time up to the decouple point at the prop shaft.
Looking at the difference between having the locking at the rear diff vs. the transfer case, think of rotating mass. Assuming the front wheels are spinning and the rear are not, with the AWD activation at the rear(current system), you only have to apply power to the main gear in the diff, axles and wheels. If the AWD activation is within the transfer case(again, only front wheels spinning), you have to also accelerate the prop shaft, which is additional rotational mass. If you had the decouple point at the transmission splines, you'd also have to accelerate the gears within the transfer case. This would require the "locking" system to be more robust to turn that additional mass.
In the end, the CX9 transfer case simply does not have enough fluid capacity or and easy means to replace the fluid.
Here's how I see it. With the way the system is now, the transfer case is just a gear box, as stated by batmancx, which drive the prop shaft to the rear differential. When there's slippage detected, the rear diff "locks up"(to varying degrees) to send power to the rear wheels.
Now, if you put a standard differential in the rear(think rear wheel drive only vehicle), the rear wheels will be driving the prop shaft all the time(under normal driving conditions). That prop shaft may not be turning something in the transfer case all the time, but something in the transfer case will be turning all the time. Depending on where you decouple the transfer case from the transmission will depend on how much is turning from the prop shaft.
Example 1: If you decouple the transmission and the transfer case at the splines coming out of the transmission, the prop shaft will be turning all the gears in the transfer case up to that decouple point.
Example 2: If you decouple the transfer case from the prop shaft, the transmission will be driving the gears in the transfer case all the time up to the decouple point at the prop shaft.
Looking at the difference between having the locking at the rear diff vs. the transfer case, think of rotating mass. Assuming the front wheels are spinning and the rear are not, with the AWD activation at the rear(current system), you only have to apply power to the main gear in the diff, axles and wheels. If the AWD activation is within the transfer case(again, only front wheels spinning), you have to also accelerate the prop shaft, which is additional rotational mass. If you had the decouple point at the transmission splines, you'd also have to accelerate the gears within the transfer case. This would require the "locking" system to be more robust to turn that additional mass.
In the end, the CX9 transfer case simply does not have enough fluid capacity or and easy means to replace the fluid.
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@Odrapnew, you are correct and all very good points ...
bottom line is short of trading in or selling, best course of option for current owners is to change the oil regularly,
I really like the CX-9 , I think it's sleeker than most current SUV's except for the Porsche Macan
I'll probably drive my CX-9 till the wheels for off, then probably get the 2018/19 CX-9 after there's >2 years worth of reliability data.
bottom line is short of trading in or selling, best course of option for current owners is to change the oil regularly,
I really like the CX-9 , I think it's sleeker than most current SUV's except for the Porsche Macan
I'll probably drive my CX-9 till the wheels for off, then probably get the 2018/19 CX-9 after there's >2 years worth of reliability data.
I agree Odrapnew has a point. It doesn't change the fact that this system is very poorly designed. Some poor engineering soul had to come up with literal work around FWD system to adapt it to AWD. Awd version should have different tranny with embeded AWD differential or central permanent central diff. subaru style. This car is no prius to begin with. It could swallow another 1 mpg hit with proper AWD system easily. My outback with 2.5 engine can do 30mpg easily driving 70MPH. Newer AWD/CVT combination is very efficient all driven, let's not forget, by ancient subaru boxer.
Your comparing a small 4 cyl, to a large v6, and two cars that can literally have a 1000 pound difference. Its really comparing apples, to oranges with those two. lol
WTF !!!! Another AWD turned FWD test drive today. Very nice specimen, traded to the local Porshe dealer. 2010, only 56k miles, ridiculously overpriced but that is always a matter of negotiations. 35F, dry road, stock Duellers on. Well, to be fair, by now there is s*** load of salt on the roads so it's actually almost as slippery as it would be with little snow on the ground.....well not really but definitely far from the traction on clean road. Anyway, I slammed gas in 1st gear resulting in a lot of slip. I though that maybe it's just delay from when AWD kicks in but then as I was rolling through the turn, I hit it again and it pretty much slipped all the way through the first gear. I haven't noticed 4WD light blinking but than again I was looking at the road. I will try to convince them to drop it off at mazda service for their extended 90K TC service.
wow, just wow, there must be so many used AWD's that are actually FWD's on dealers lots ! previous owners probably knew the transfer cases were shot and got rid of them instead of fixing them.
I mean the car will drive just fine, it's basically just a standard FWD CX-9 now, and if you happen to be in a location that doesn't need AWD it might just be a blessing in disguise, no more worries about transfer case leaking or transmission splines. Only downside is the extra money paid for the AWD model when in reality it's really a FWD.
I wonder if there will be class action lawsuit against Mazda.... they know something is wrong with the transfer case design but haven't fixed the problem or issued a recall.
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I am just wondering. Is that the way an all wheel drive or 4 wheel drive should be driven? by punching the gas all the way down. I thought that people should be driving slower in inclement weather. Maybe I am missing something here unless I misunderstood what he wrote. Please fill me in.
Just my thoughts, from a test drive point of view, by punching the gas it'll intentionally force the front wheels to spin and once the computer senses the front wheels slipping and the car not moving forward: it should activate the rear clutch system and engage the rear wheels and the driver should regain control/traction, If not, then there's something seriously wrong with the AWD system, in the CX9, that would be the transfer case.
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Drogos, sorry I do not know, I was able to find this online though if it helps :
Mazda: Tribute, CX-7, CX-9 (tribute Control Trac II, based)
http://www.liquisearch.com/four-wheel_drive/systems_by_design_type/multi-plate_clutch_coupling
thank you. In your own experience though. When forcing cx 9 into more slip than front axle can handle ....is there perceivable initial slip followed by read end engagement? In the scenario I described earlier, should there be any slip at all on properly functioning AWD? I have never experienced front axle slip in any road conditions in any of my subarus even though they all have less ideal viscous center diff....and theoretically there could be some delay in read end engagement. There is non, ever. Not glorifying Subaru's AWD by no means, just describing my experience. For the sake of future test drives, I am trying to nail down all the parameters of properly engaging AWD in Mazda. I am pretty sure that the one I was driving that had properly functioning AWD had no delay.....but than again it was in the snow so It was hard to distinguish and recognize if there even was any delay between front and read end engagement. I certainly didn't burn front tires through the whole rev range, lol.
In my own experience, there is a perceivable initial slip (not a whole lot but noticeable) followed by rear end engagement
skip to the 12:10 mark of youtube video below where they test out the CX-9 AWD system, that's how my AWD drives
on your next CX-9 test drive, try to find a empty truck loading lot and run the diagonal test,
But don't do it on such a steep angle like this idiot below, he probably damaged the car @ the 5:00 mark,
looks like the car's whole weight is only supported by the undercarriage when the car is swaying:
CX-9 AWD was clearly not designed or intended for off roading, just mate it with good all season tires
or winter tires during snow season and it's good enough for most people.
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GUYS ... I GOT IT !!!! Just got 11' CX 9 GT with 76k miles. Best year/milage combination for the price in my opinion. Not loving white pearl and sand interior ....especially the latter ....ok I f$ckin hate that sand interior but you can't have everything. Out of ...many cx 9s I have drove, this one has best operating AWD. No perceived delay, at least on gravel and car is clean ....I mean CLEAN. Love it so far, all electronics seems to work fine. Not sure about rain sensing wipers ....don't seem to work at all but have to read manual first, maybe I am doing something wrong.
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