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- Mazda CX-9 Signature
What if I get the AWD and yank out the front axles so I become RWD?
Question on the AWD system
- Thread starter hal2
- Start date
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- RDX Aspec Adv.
Ultimately, it comes down to this: If at any point you are able to smash the throttle and the front tires lose traction because of it: AWD would have helped you. If you have never driven aggressively enough through the corners to have this be "a thing", then you're not really qualified to discuss it except as theoretical.
I understand all of the videos people have linked, but none of them compare the performance to a non-AWD version, so there is no way to quantify if there is any advantage.
The only comparable performance data we have, which I posted, shows AWD performs worse in acceleration/braking, and no better in roadholding/handling.
I'm not saying Mazda is lying at all. They are simply promoting the higher profit margin vehicle in these videos. There is nothing wrong with that. I would do the same.
As mentioned 100 times, this thread is only about warm dry weather conditions. And you already acknowledged that I was correct, so I don't know why you keep fighting about it.
You explicitly said "I suppose a FWD is all that's ever really needed" in dry/warm weather conditions.
It's not that simple. AWD systems add weight and drivetrain power losses.
Just because you might chirp the tires at full throttle launch doesn't mean that AWD would provided better overall performance.
Car & Driver acknowledged this when they tested the FWD and AWD CX-5...
Despite increased launch traction, the heftier AWD model’s straight-line performance fell behind its lighter FWD kin.
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- RDX Aspec Adv.
More about the corners.
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- North of Toronto
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- 2019 CX-9 Sig
This seems to me to be the OP issue. What does the Mazda system do - and is it similar to upmarket Hondas and Acuras. I think this is his concern, though he's likely long gone from this!
And the answer is it does not do what is being debated here, will not aid dry weather handling by sending torque to outside wheel. It can't split power left to right.
Will it aid handling set up as is? I've wondered this. Hard to see how sudden power to both rears helps in a corner to any discernible degree. I'm no engineer or expert, but seems any advantage would be minimal.
As for torque vectoring systems, is it really necessary to provide evidence of worth? Are we really fake news for believing what reviews consistently claim, that it helps reduce understeer? Will I be attacked for believing this? Do I care to prove it if someone doesn't believe it?
OP is in Phoenix, so as much as this Cdn needs AWD, were all probably splitting hairs. The performance diff is not likely to be felt. IF OP really wants better cornering, prob better to buy a sedan and a roofbox.
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- North of Toronto
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- 2019 CX-9 Sig
Perhaps not better overall performance (although I can see it doing so) BUT better REAL WORLD performance. No feathering of throttle. Just hammer it.
As posted before, the AWD version did not perform any better on the skidpad, which is the only objective measure of roadholding/handling. This is likely due to the fact that the CX-5 is a high-profile, high center-of-gravity, low-power, short wheelbase SUV with skinny all-season tires. AWD does not provide some magical formula to overcome these attributes.
Here are some third-party views on whether AWD improves dry weather handling.
Car & Driver:
AWD doesn't automatically improve handling on dry pavement in and of itself. It depends on the vehicle. More and more high-powered, high-performance cars [Note: the CX-5 is neither of these] are using AWD for its ability to harness big horsepower without spinning the tires.
Edmunds:
Improves dry handling: This benefit applies only to AWD vehicles with torque vectoring. Acura's Super Handling All-Wheel Drive (SH-AWD) distributes torque to all four wheels. This system is one of the rare cases in which AWD can help with cornering.
Doug Demuro / Autotrader:
Is it always a good idea to choose an AWD car? We don’t think you should opt for AWD unless you really need it — and here’s why. Given the drawbacks of AWD and 4WD, our general advice for shoppers interested in a new vehicle is that you should only opt for these features if it’s necessary. But in many vehicles, the benefits of AWD only outweigh the drawbacks if you plan on using the system frequently on rough roads or during harsh weather conditions.
Popular Mechanics:
"Sure-footed all-wheel-drive handling." That's the kind of lingo you're likely to hear in car ads and marketing material, and it has prompted me to shout at televisions, print ads, and the occasional car-company rep: All-wheel drive doesn't help handling! It's disingenuous to say or infer that AWD enhances cornering prowess.
Here are some third-party views on whether AWD improves dry weather handling.
Car & Driver:
AWD doesn't automatically improve handling on dry pavement in and of itself. It depends on the vehicle. More and more high-powered, high-performance cars [Note: the CX-5 is neither of these] are using AWD for its ability to harness big horsepower without spinning the tires.
Edmunds:
Improves dry handling: This benefit applies only to AWD vehicles with torque vectoring. Acura's Super Handling All-Wheel Drive (SH-AWD) distributes torque to all four wheels. This system is one of the rare cases in which AWD can help with cornering.
Doug Demuro / Autotrader:
Is it always a good idea to choose an AWD car? We don’t think you should opt for AWD unless you really need it — and here’s why. Given the drawbacks of AWD and 4WD, our general advice for shoppers interested in a new vehicle is that you should only opt for these features if it’s necessary. But in many vehicles, the benefits of AWD only outweigh the drawbacks if you plan on using the system frequently on rough roads or during harsh weather conditions.
Popular Mechanics:
"Sure-footed all-wheel-drive handling." That's the kind of lingo you're likely to hear in car ads and marketing material, and it has prompted me to shout at televisions, print ads, and the occasional car-company rep: All-wheel drive doesn't help handling! It's disingenuous to say or infer that AWD enhances cornering prowess.
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- North of Toronto
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- 2019 CX-9 Sig
Sorry I know not related to OP post but is it me or is Subaru just giving people what most other mainstream brands give, AWD with no torque vectoring? Why is it their owners feel they are so blessed? Off road? But if it's a Jeep they want, get a jeep.
Never understood the Subaru mystique around AWD.
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- North of Toronto
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- 2019 CX-9 Sig
Whether or not it is only objective measure, handling is subjective. Cars have won comparos with the worst performance numbers (marginal of course) due to feel.
I've read vectoring systems just give that feel in a corner. Stability. Point and gas it. A feel of rotation of car if you will.
Just numbers for me won't cut it. A Mustang driver could get around a corner faster than me if he drifts. But real world is something diff than numbers on a track or in a controlled test.
These are the EXACT SAME POINTS I've been making since this thread began.
I'll be interested to see if the AWD proponents go after you for expressing the same position as me!
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- North of Toronto
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- 2019 CX-9 Sig
It is not exactly what youre saying. Maybe I wasn't clear.
I am saying Mazda's system doesn't torque vector. I believe that is what OP wanted to know. Not whether AWD helps IN GENERAL. I think he wants to know whether Mazda has vectoring to help.
Which it doesn't have. Something that doesn't exist in a vehicle can't help handling. That doesn't mean I don't believe the existence of the torque split left to right would not help.
Whether Mazda's system helps or not, again I can't say for sure but i'd think it would be marginal at best in corners.
But where we differ is whether AWD with vectoring helps. I believe you think it doesn't (correct me if that's wrong).
I believe it does. And i think Audi, MB, acura drivers know that numbers don't tell the whole story.
Ok so I will be the peacemaker and go all in that there is not appreciable difference driving a FWD or AWD CX5 on perfectly dry roads. The FWD get a tad better mpg and when both versions are at 100% full throttle the FWD should edge out the AWD in a drag race.
Also the AWD is superior drivetrain as it handles just as well in perfectly dry conditions and vastly better in poor weather situations. Enjoys much broader appeal and much better resale.
Also the AWD is superior drivetrain as it handles just as well in perfectly dry conditions and vastly better in poor weather situations. Enjoys much broader appeal and much better resale.
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- Canada
Exactly. It's the same reason the slightly lower 0-60 time in a straight line test doesn't mean the AWD provides worse overall performance. We are talking overall performance, specifically in aggressive driving.
A better comparison test would have been a lap time comparison between a 2nd gen CX-5 FWD and a 2nd gen CX-5 AWD, with both cars being driven back to back by the same driver. The question the OP has is whether the AWD system engages during aggressive driving in clean, dry conditions. 0-60 straight line performance is just one facet of the aggressive driving hal2 is describing - in fact, it seems that he is most concerned about whether the AWD engages during high speed cornering.
You're only answering part of the question that's being asked.
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- Canada
To rehash the question - does Mazda's i-Activ AWD detect any of the aforementioned spirited driving conditions to start directing power to different wheels?
Mazda's system only directs power to the front/rear axles, not individual wheels. Mazda's system will direct power to the rear when the front wheels start to slip - that much we know for sure. The question is whether or not the predictive system uses the sensor info to "pre-load" the AWD system in clean, dry conditions.
Regarding the video of the CX-5 on the track that was posted at the end of page 4.. I don't think the video actually specifies that the CX-5 that was driven was AWD. I watched it all the way through and they don't mention it, but I may have missed it. That said, it looks like the car has a manual transmission (1:15) and a manual parking brake (4:44). That leads me to believe that it is a FWD with the 2.0 engine.
Mazda's system only directs power to the front/rear axles, not individual wheels. Mazda's system will direct power to the rear when the front wheels start to slip - that much we know for sure. The question is whether or not the predictive system uses the sensor info to "pre-load" the AWD system in clean, dry conditions.
Regarding the video of the CX-5 on the track that was posted at the end of page 4.. I don't think the video actually specifies that the CX-5 that was driven was AWD. I watched it all the way through and they don't mention it, but I may have missed it. That said, it looks like the car has a manual transmission (1:15) and a manual parking brake (4:44). That leads me to believe that it is a FWD with the 2.0 engine.
No, we do not differ on that point.
I actually never commented on AWD with vectoring here, but agree with your position.
Great way to re-phrase my question
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- North of Toronto
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- 2019 CX-9 Sig
Ok sorry I skimmed thru and thought you felt any AWD system won't help (hadn't seen this thread before now and it is long, and I'm supposed to be working from home oh well)
Then I guess I am closer to your position than others. Do I feel if i go into a corner FWD activated, and the system flips and sends AWD power to both rear wheels, will this help? You don't believe it will, and I guess i am at least saying I doubt it will. I'll cover my you know what and say "doubt".
Even if it helps, will it be noticeable in any significant degree? That I can't see. But I studied economics (the dismal science), not physics.
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- North of Toronto
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- 2019 CX-9 Sig
HA! A great re-focus.
And now I'm curious, short of nailing it and slipping rubber, does it activate the rears? Was this answered?
Should I go back to working? Will my wife be mad if she knows I've spent an hour on this?
