Well, I can't speak for the MS3, but my RX-8 Bose system rocks. We all have different tastes in music, listening styles, etc. It all boils down to opinion and nobody is correct or incorrect. I have also been in automobiles such as Lexus, Audi and Infiniti. Truly amazing audio systems. Why? Because you pay for it big time.
Why all the hate for the BOSE in the MS3 GT?
- Thread starter 94jedi
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fourthmeal
Banned
Hikaru9 said:That's quite an extensive list, FourthMeal. *^_^*
I've played around only with Pioneer, Sony, Kenwood and Alpine products in my cars although I did service a variety of other brands at my last job.
Where is SEAS from?
SEAS makes OEM drivers for prominent companies, and is known internationally as one of the better build houses. Companies like Sony, Kenwood, and Alpine, for example, are usually not responsible for making their own speakers. They rely on speaker build-houses, then they slap their logo on it. Extremely common in the audio world, both car and home.
Oh, and Altspace...you ain't heard NOTHING yet if you think your BOSE system rocks. I've auditioned the RX-8 system, and I can tell you that while BOSE is good, an investment of, say, $1500-$2000 will yield you such a fantastic improvement in sonic quality, you'll wonder what the hell you've been doing all this time with just BOSE. You see, its all relative. You go to a concert, and you do your best to reproduce that feeling of "live" sound. BOSE doesn't even come close to this. The reason why? Their preference to use psychoacoustics as a solution to sound reproduction, as opposed to working hard on quality speaker motors, cones, etc. When I tear a BOSE system apart in a car, the first thing I notice is the drivers are incredibly poor at producing a natural, crisp, and believable sound. They use coated paper, which is a fine choice of cone material, but their magnets and motor assemblies are ancient technology, not capable of linear, impactful performance. They heavily under-power their drivers as well. The final nail in their coffin? Very poor application of sound dampener or cabinet work. They also lose points in my mind with their choice to deviate from typical ohm ratings, making it near impossible to mix and match BOSE with other gear.
Here's the cliff-notes of what BOSE delivers to a car. Go to a world-class concert, and sit on the back lawn. Now, stick cotton in your ears. Then, take a thick blanket, and sit underneath it, and listen. That is about what you get out of a BOSE system.
whitey4311
Member
- :
- MS3 GT Black Mica w/nav
Now that I listen to the stereo more critically I do see where the Bose isnt so great. It does tend to vibrate and muffle certain bass sounds. Its good enough for me but I wont lie because if I didnt pay for it and it were just stock radio I would likely upgrade all the stuff. But now it would be a bad idea to unbolt all that bose equipment and a waste of money.
fourthmeal
Banned
ebay is your friend in this situation. ALSO, you can take a product like RAAMAT and Ensolite and install it in the doors, and you'll notice instantaneously better sound quality, even from BOSE.
hey fourth, what do you mean "ebay is your friend"?
I've been out of the ICE game for several years....is RAAMAT and Ensolite like Dynamat that has to be rolled on? When I was getting out of the industry, there were a few products coming out that were like "Rhino-liner" in that they were spray-on, used for sounds deadening. I wouldn't be opposed to trying to improve sound quality as long as it doesn't involve ripping out anything. I REALLY don't want to get into upgrading the stereo components.
I've been out of the ICE game for several years....is RAAMAT and Ensolite like Dynamat that has to be rolled on? When I was getting out of the industry, there were a few products coming out that were like "Rhino-liner" in that they were spray-on, used for sounds deadening. I wouldn't be opposed to trying to improve sound quality as long as it doesn't involve ripping out anything. I REALLY don't want to get into upgrading the stereo components.
- :
- 2010 Mazda CX-9 GT Dolphin Gray
Sounds like you have some experience with sound reproduction...but
(rant)
I don't buy the whole "live performance" aspect of your argument. The notion of "reproducing a live performance" is a myth propegated by audiophiles and those arguments that have built an industry that thrives on "perception."
Tell me, exactly what is "true to the source?"
Your example of listeneing to a live performance of a world class concert is flawed because no matter where you go the sound of "live" WILL be different. Listening to a performance at the Hatshell in Boston is different than listening to a performance at Tanglewood or Symphony Hall.
Furthermore tell me how many Jazz bars sound the same?
And forget about finding a "live" Rock performance that's consistent. Unless it's acoustic without sound reinforcement amplification your not dealing with "LIVE" sound. LIVE SOUND is unamplified. It makes me laugh when MTV had/has their unplugged concerts- the majority of which are using amplifiers and sound HORRIBLE.
While I can respect your points on a system reproducing a linear and true sound, many of the recordings and live performances aren't LINEAR to being with. Most studio recordings are mastered to sound best on a boombox- and now an iPod.
Over the last 20 years I've listened to a wide range of high end (Dynaudio, Audio Research, NAD, Paradigm, Thiel etc.) and cheap stereo products (Most of the stuff in Best Buy) and I can tell you that while some people may not prefer the sound of Bose, it certainly doesn't deserve the beaten it's received from audiophiles.
BTW psychoacstics have ALOT to do with the way each of us perceives sound. So do atmospheric conditions and a human's VERY short-term hearing memory.
I find my mood, the venue, the weather and the aesthetics of the equipment ALL have a bearing on how something sounds. Why do you think so many audiophile manufacturers spend thousands of dollars installing two-inch thick aluminum or Stainless Steel faceplates on their gear? Or choose blue lights over green lights? Or have famous spokespeople advertise their equipment. Because a large part of what people base decisions on is in how things look. Half the consumer car speakers have grilles and other extraneous plastic crap on them, not becasue they improve performance becasue they look cool.
Bose is successful because people DO find value in their products and DO enjoy their music through their products. I have a Bose wave radio and a pair of their newer QC3 Noise cancelling headphones and they certainly offer a convenient way for me to enjoy music when I can't sit down and enjoy my HK and NHT system. The headphones in particular really do a nice job keeping me rested and relaxed while enjoying my music off my iPod during an uncomfortable flight.
Funny how people always vilify the corporations that manage to make money. (dark)
Bottom-line: listen to what you like on a system that makes it sound best to your ear.
Music is personal and sound is HIGHLY subjective.
fourthmeal said:
(rant)
I don't buy the whole "live performance" aspect of your argument. The notion of "reproducing a live performance" is a myth propegated by audiophiles and those arguments that have built an industry that thrives on "perception."
Tell me, exactly what is "true to the source?"
Your example of listeneing to a live performance of a world class concert is flawed because no matter where you go the sound of "live" WILL be different. Listening to a performance at the Hatshell in Boston is different than listening to a performance at Tanglewood or Symphony Hall.
Furthermore tell me how many Jazz bars sound the same?
And forget about finding a "live" Rock performance that's consistent. Unless it's acoustic without sound reinforcement amplification your not dealing with "LIVE" sound. LIVE SOUND is unamplified. It makes me laugh when MTV had/has their unplugged concerts- the majority of which are using amplifiers and sound HORRIBLE.
While I can respect your points on a system reproducing a linear and true sound, many of the recordings and live performances aren't LINEAR to being with. Most studio recordings are mastered to sound best on a boombox- and now an iPod.
Over the last 20 years I've listened to a wide range of high end (Dynaudio, Audio Research, NAD, Paradigm, Thiel etc.) and cheap stereo products (Most of the stuff in Best Buy) and I can tell you that while some people may not prefer the sound of Bose, it certainly doesn't deserve the beaten it's received from audiophiles.
BTW psychoacstics have ALOT to do with the way each of us perceives sound. So do atmospheric conditions and a human's VERY short-term hearing memory.
I find my mood, the venue, the weather and the aesthetics of the equipment ALL have a bearing on how something sounds. Why do you think so many audiophile manufacturers spend thousands of dollars installing two-inch thick aluminum or Stainless Steel faceplates on their gear? Or choose blue lights over green lights? Or have famous spokespeople advertise their equipment. Because a large part of what people base decisions on is in how things look. Half the consumer car speakers have grilles and other extraneous plastic crap on them, not becasue they improve performance becasue they look cool.
Bose is successful because people DO find value in their products and DO enjoy their music through their products. I have a Bose wave radio and a pair of their newer QC3 Noise cancelling headphones and they certainly offer a convenient way for me to enjoy music when I can't sit down and enjoy my HK and NHT system. The headphones in particular really do a nice job keeping me rested and relaxed while enjoying my music off my iPod during an uncomfortable flight.
Funny how people always vilify the corporations that manage to make money. (dark)
Bottom-line: listen to what you like on a system that makes it sound best to your ear.
Music is personal and sound is HIGHLY subjective.
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Ryz said:
First of all the Bose was an upgrade not a "stock" radio. Bose sounds great to most people because they do not know better. The typical American consumer is a sheep lead by the marketing herders. Listen to the thousands of Bose commercials, were they state that this expert or that expert says... as compared to the speakers in your tv the bose sound system is far superior.
I am not disagreeing with that statement or that bose makes slight than better speakers/systems but that for the price there are infinitesimally more systems out there that are much better for the price. Look at edmunds,com for best sound systems and while bose makes the list on the higher end vehicles, the vehicles like the focus and some other compacts make the list with best budget radios that sound amazing. Just because it is expensive it does not mean it is good.
You are paying for the name and the typical consumer likes names. Example for the money the iPod is not the best product for the money, but it is the best seller in the world. Consumers constantly walk into stores and buy what the salesman tells them. I used to work as salesman in an electronics store when I was in College and all the salesman always sold on what company was giving them a trip to Hawaii or the $1000 mountain bike for being the top seller, not what is best for you.
Also walk into any electronics store were bose speakers are sold and they are always located away from the sound listening room so you can not do an A/B comparison. They have the self contained booths with the speakers sticking out on stands and people are sucked in.
Also If Bose was so great why did the US Government cancel there contract with them when they could not produce noise cancelling head sets that worked. Thanks to Bose and there under performing noise cancelling head sets my friend has permanent hearing lose using bose headsets launching aircrafts off an aircraft carrier for the navy.
HAVOC said:
First off, the BOSE system is stock in the GT meaning that there is no other model that comes with it. Second, noise cancelling headphones aren't meant to protect hearing, only cause you to not hear ambient sound. Please show me the link regarding goverment cancellation of contracts.
HAVOC said:
Having lived on an aircraft carrier (USS America 1995-1996) and also having owned noise cancelling headphones by Sony and Bose, there is NO WAY any of those can block the sound from those aircraft. You need big blocky looking headphones that actually block sound, not try to cancel out ambient noise. Check out a race sometime. All the officials and pit crews are not wearing noise cancelling headphones. They are wearing units that attempt to block the sound as best as they can.
I commute about 3-4hrs a day in a commuter van and the Bose QC2's work awesome for killing the drone of the van and traffic. Noise cancelling aren't meant for the work on a flight deck. If they were being used as such, then someone was using them under the wrong impression of their capabilities and designed purpose.
As for car stereos... I think the Bose systems in most cars are decent. Not great, not as good as a custom built system, etc but decent. Better than whatever would normally be in there stock. It is absolutely a marketing thing to say BOSE STEREO! in the car, but since the cost is negligible depending on the model (CTS Bose package is actually free on the larger displacement car) why not enjoy the upgraded stereo? It won't please everyone, nothing ever does. But it is a decent system, regardless of the name stamped on the outside of the speakers.
Besides the QC headphones (tons better than the two Sony sets I had), I won't buy Bose just because of the extra you pay for the name, but if a car comes w/it, cool.
That is all I have to say about that.
79_Limited
Member
- :
- 2006 Madza 3 Hatchback
HAVOC said:
I agree my wife's old Beetle Monsoon was is the best factory system I have ever heard in a vehicle. I think it was only a $250 upgrade which was a deal.
All i can say is that the BOSE system in my new car doesn't have any of the clarity, presence, sound stage or spacial separation that the BOSE wave or BOSE Acoustimass systems from 10 years ago seemed to have.
I'm not a hater, and I'm not the world's snootiest audiophile, but I do know "good" sound when I hear it.
While the BOSE in my MS3 is somewhat powerful -and does produce ok sound at the high end of the frequency range, the mids and lows are hopelessley muddy and actually fatigue my ears after long drives.
Some people just don't hear it - they've never trained their ears or maqybe ever cared to... Perhaps they never really noticed the difference when they were in ear-shot of a true quaility sound system. For these people, this BOSE system will suffice.
I think I'll keep the head unit -i like the integration of the wheel controls and all, but I think the speakers and amps are gonna have to go...
I'm not a hater, and I'm not the world's snootiest audiophile, but I do know "good" sound when I hear it.
While the BOSE in my MS3 is somewhat powerful -and does produce ok sound at the high end of the frequency range, the mids and lows are hopelessley muddy and actually fatigue my ears after long drives.
Some people just don't hear it - they've never trained their ears or maqybe ever cared to... Perhaps they never really noticed the difference when they were in ear-shot of a true quaility sound system. For these people, this BOSE system will suffice.
I think I'll keep the head unit -i like the integration of the wheel controls and all, but I think the speakers and amps are gonna have to go...
79_Limited said:
fourthmeal
Banned
94jedi said:
I meant that you can always eBay your BOSE equipment, and recoup some $$.
94jedi said:
RAAMAT and Ensolite are quality products from raamaudio. Rick at Raamaudio is a good guy to work with, and takes care of DIYMA forum members. Think of RAAMAT like Dynamat, but FAR cheaper and virutally the same quality, and think of Ensolite like...well...maybe a thin closed cell foam that goes over the RAAMAT. The two together can make something very quiet. These two are not spray on, but rather stick on. RAAMAT is self-adhesive, and Ensolite uses its accompanying spray adhesive.
Antonio DiMarco said:
As to this quote, and all the rest you said, I will say succinctly that I agree with you for the most part. My personal experience with BOSE has been long and profitable for me, but I can't say I've ever built a BOSE-equipped theater and thought it was something special. Sure, they are "good", but for the price point, and the performance promised, they do not deliver. In other words, "The Emperor Has No Clothes!"
Listen, I'm not going to play the dick-swinging contest with anybody about sound or what is better or not, because sound is subjective and very dependant on variables, but common sense says that you can do better then BOSE, and you can do it cheaper. My main "beef" with BOSE is what they claim to do, vs. what they actually do. See, I sold them for years and years, right alongside other brands as well. For me, home audio was what I made a living off of, for about 7 years of my life (off and on), and what I've made a hobby for about 10 years. Bear in mind, I'm only 27, so I have a lot of learning to do, still. At any rate, I became an expert in designing and installing home theaters for Circuit City (this was around '98, when they weren't the sh*tbox they are today), and got really good while working for Ultimate Electronics. I've probably installed 150 home theaters, and hundreds more whole-house audio systems. Now, as far as pro-audio goes, I'm an absolute novice, but I am pretty picky about what venues I'll visit because I have a sensitive ear for things like distortion or poor equalization.
I agree completely about sound being different in different parts of a club or venue. One of my favorite systems I've built was for a large barn that was converted into a rodeo training center for a customer of mine. He disliked the way pro-audio sounded, and instead opted to go with some very potent home theater speakers in a NE/SE/NW/SW style grouping at the top of the stadium. Then, I ran individual outdoor speaker pairs to each of his horse stables, and to a few rooms. Each room and stable had a different acoustic signature, naturally. However, with careful placement work, and the use of gentle EQ curves, the grouping at the top came out pretty much perfect in 80% or so of the stadium seating areas. Very impressive despite unusal techniques and equipment.
In another situation, I had the opportunity to rebuild the Monster Room in Ultimate, which is a 10 channel system, and 6 subs. So it is a 10.6 system! Natually, a 7.1 signal running into a 10.6 setup was daunting, but again careful tuning and room sweeps resulted in a natural, room filling sound. That room had seating in many different areas, in an attempt to show customers how sound systems work in different ways for a room, and how over-kill a system could be, if that was what they wanted. The 10.6 setup was run by a DENON 5805, which could dumb the system down to 7.2, 5.2, 3.2, and 2.2, so a potential customer could decide how they want their home to sound. Point is, I completely agree with how the sonic character or a room or venue is extremely variable.
BOSE makes money by cutting corners, in design of their cabinets, to their amps, to their speakers, etc. Cutting corners means you are more interested in making a buck then making a legacy. BOSE is still cruising on their namesake and not on product evolvement. This is MY opinion, and it mostly comes from my experience selling, installing, fixing, and removing BOSE systems to make way for better (yet the same cost) gear (like Mirage Omni, or Definitive Technology Mythos)
Ryz said:
I'm afraid I'll disagree with this. You've gotta be careful using the word "All" there.
Also, about noice cancelling headphones...You wouldn't want to trust them in situations where you are trying to reduce decibels to the ear. One main reason why is that the SPL levels actually rise when using them (though the apparent sound is reduced) because the waves going against each other still increase pressure on the eardrums. That means if you are already straining with, say, jetwash, you'd really be in trouble with noice cancellers out there. Click on a set of noise cancellation earphones, and you'll feel that pressure on your eardrums. Strange feeling, isn't it?
BTW, Adamkiwi, try doing sound deadening techniques, you'll probably find that muddiness is directly a result of the door's resonance. I started w/ the stock non-Bose system, so I yanked it all out and went w/ Canton and some other goodies, but for you, if you like what you have, try going w/ deadener. LOTS.
Personally, I think the bose system is terrible. Systems like this are what give Bose a bad name to audiophiles. It isn't really quality, or all that different from other factory systems. My passengers have all said, "Ooo, you have Bose, they must be nice". Innovation through marketing...
In order to have any reasonable sound quality, both the bass and treble settings must be set so far below flat. It isn't even funny.
The tweeters are harsh and undefined and they are crossed over really high. The midbasses don't have any low pass filtering on them. They are allowed to roll off naturally which typically makes the midrange harsh.
The one plus to the Bose system, that I'll give them credit for, is the stage height. It is pretty good. But the lack of lowpass filtering on the midbass and the high "crossover" point of the tweeter is what creates this. Of course, it is at the expense of midrange clarity.
Not to mention, the low midbass is muddy at any appreciable volume. I find myself turning the volume down sometimes, just because the midrange is too harsh and hard on my ears.
I recently bought some Seas woofers and tweeters to install in my MS3 GT because I can't take it. Seas is a Norwegian speaker manufacturer about an hour or two southwest of Oslo.
-Mark
In order to have any reasonable sound quality, both the bass and treble settings must be set so far below flat. It isn't even funny.
The tweeters are harsh and undefined and they are crossed over really high. The midbasses don't have any low pass filtering on them. They are allowed to roll off naturally which typically makes the midrange harsh.
The one plus to the Bose system, that I'll give them credit for, is the stage height. It is pretty good. But the lack of lowpass filtering on the midbass and the high "crossover" point of the tweeter is what creates this. Of course, it is at the expense of midrange clarity.
Not to mention, the low midbass is muddy at any appreciable volume. I find myself turning the volume down sometimes, just because the midrange is too harsh and hard on my ears.
I recently bought some Seas woofers and tweeters to install in my MS3 GT because I can't take it. Seas is a Norwegian speaker manufacturer about an hour or two southwest of Oslo.
-Mark
